Safe Speed Forums

Welcome to weepej's world, I'm suprised he wasn't eating a sandwich, drinking a beer and tuning the radio too.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

As I stated, he was using mobile phone with his right hand (dialling), holding an A to Z with his left, and gripping his wheel with his knees (with the back of his map hand resting against the wheel.

All while negotiating this in rush hour traffic:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=a ... .68,,0,8.3

I have seen somebody eating a burger with both hands whilst going along, and the strangest thing I've seen is somebody changing their prosthetic arm whilst negotiating Rotten Row.

You get to see a lot of what's going on in car cockpits from a cycle.

Which can all be properly dealt with if there are good well trained officers on the streets ... would those people be tempted for a second to do these actions if they thought there was a policeman/woman up ahead - doubt it very much and utterly foolhardy if they did!
I have seen some crazy things over the years too, mostly from obs from the car than the bike but .... Mind I have also seen bicycle riders do v stupid things too ! Curiously rarely seen motorbikes do silly things ...

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

He was just coming into the City of London, past the Royal Courts of Justice, and had just been through what was probably The Mall or Whitehall. Always plenty of police officers around there I can tell you. When I see somebody on a mobile phone around that area there's very often a police officer in sight I can get the attention of for a little word with said driver.

He was clearly very lost and in a hurry, I suspect having the death penalty as punishment for getting caught doing what he was doing wouldn't have made him think twice.

What map of London are you using ??? Agree CofL is nr Royal Crts of J but The Mall & Whitehall !? If he came into L from the East no way has he got anywhere near The M or W/hall? Still a small point within the context.
How many of them 'bother' to do anything - as a genuine matter of interest?
I think it a bit of an assumption that he was lost ... I can know approximately where I am going and will refer to the details of my route by using the map - not lost just checking my route. (happens less now with SatNav - one great advantage of a them. But I will usually have previously looked at a map - check precisely where my end point is ... now on google St map too - been v handy
Of course were your death penalty wish true then he would never have another chance ...of course! Not that I think you are too serious!
The point about the Police is that they can 'book' for an error but when appropriate to educate then often a motorist will learn and yes it may take a few times but this is the point. It is about making the roads better, raising overall standards. The Police are needed to actively be a big part of that along with education, but equally are appropriate laws.
Phone use is not the huge problem they have sweepingly stated it was or there would be even more accidents than there are. There is clearly a case of inattention and motorists need to appreciate their errors and apply good behaviours, but the Gov must always have clear unbiased research to fall back on and ensure that they are applying 'just enough' enforcement to extract those desired good behaviours.
Overdo enforcement and you loose respect - exactly where we are now.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

West, he was driving west. He could have come over Waterloo Bridge, but he was heading into the City, and would have had to go through the ring of steel.



They are all interested, but normally the errant driver has put their phone down by then. Three have had words though, one on foot, one on a motorbike, and one in a car.



It's an assumption, but he had an A to Z, was on the phone, and was very angry when I asked if he thought what he was doing was sensible, also he was clearly agitated before I intervened and much more so afterwards. He looked pretty lost to me.



Sorry, I just don't get what there is to learn about not using a mobile phone when driving your car, it's illegal, (there can't be anybody who been in the country more than five minutes that doesn't know this) and it impedes your driving.

Well that is good. Curious though - if you saw them why didn't the policewo/man ?
I must say I would have just helped him as much as I could to prevent the ongoing use of the phone - depending on circumstances possibly asked about a headset at most.
I would generally never intervine or judge, either it is not my place. If danger was apparent then I may have spoken to a nearby copper or called them.
I see that helping him to be less frustrated (and so drive better) is the prime concern especially from what you describe. Making someone more agitated makes them have less patience and does nothing for road safety. For some it can mean the beginning of such anger that could lead to road rage and that is really not a good idea. Helping to calm the situation down and diffuse any aggression is far better - that is a whole heap better than 'enforcement'.
I agree your description sounds awful, but judging appropriate action than just 'enforcement' is exactly what is going wrong on the roads.

I agree that using a mobile in your hand can distract drivers but not all, I agree it can be a road safety issue but it is not 'our place' to judge. We do not know the whole situation.
I don't see what 'being in the Country' quite has to do with it - was he a foreign vehicle ?
Even so we have as you describe and what I will go on at face value :
van driven badly
lost driver
attempting to sort out his 'problem' to a location by using map and phone.

Now what if - he was desperately trying to find the hospital or a car park, to 'arrive in time' to his dying partner ? Something really critical in life.
What if every minute counted ?
There could be a 1000 reasons. Before you say that the mobile phone use was illegal - OK yes it was. The reason we have Courts is that they can 'judge' the balance of appropriate behaviour by human beings, given the Laws of the Land at the time of the offence.
So what is 'right'? - yes pointing out his error that it was illegal but that had a worsening effect on him (as you state), so now to add to his troubles (whatever they are) he is now worse off. Your actions raised his stress than reduced it. People who are stressed drive worse not better.
However to help him would have reduced his stress - try to understand his problem too would have reduced his stress level. Now he finds you as a 'helper' you have earned respect, then a gentle comment - head set not working ? - or some such, would tell him that you noticed his illegal 'action' and he might tell you the genuine truth - and remember and act better next time. You have then created a 'win, win' situation.
I am not saying he would have cared, he might not, but just that you never gave him the chance to - your actions made it worse from what you say. That is more likely to result in worse driving than better, what have you gained from this ? You reported and got satisfaction that one person using a mobile is now booked. But what results? Will he drive better - has he 'learned' ? Unlikely. To teach typically, you need a positive environment not a negative one.
I see that it is not our place to educate other drivers, unless asked of course. Report to police if you feel that you have to, they can judge and ask hopefully appropriately.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

All well and good when you're teaching young children, but this was an adult, who frankly, should know better. He's already been taught how to drive, suffice to say I think he'd know if he used his phone and a map like that on his test he would've been failed immediately.

And really, I don't care what his situation was in this context, he was putting people around him in danger by driving like that in a public space, it was simply not acceptable.

Next episode - "he was performing somersaults on the handlebars " ,all to the tune of "don't weep for me ,marge & tina"

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I have no doubt that he 'knows'. The question is why does he chose not to?
This is about encouraging good driver behaviours - that means that the motorist voluntarily applies the known 'best practice', (usually safest too) procedures and habits. If people are widely not following that advice the 'convincer' argument issued out or reasons are simply dis-believed.
He has decided that what he has been told is not correct, so for whatever reason/s he chooses to ignore that advice and follows his own belief of safety. That is good in a way as it shows independent thinking on one hand, but on the other, the clear disbelief that what he has been told is the 'correct' 'best' behaviour is wrong - hence not following it.
(Unless he had a life threatening incident and all 'normal' actions were considered unacceptable etc!)

Just because he is an adult should not mean that he cannot be treated with respect and with intelligence (positive environment), and then people learn.
Some of the people who take the Speed awareness courses tend to say that they learned something.
Encourage and make good behaviours clear and require they are adhered to - or possible punishment, is a far better two way system, than auto enforcement (IMHO).

We we could spend hours talking about how the test is a start to a driving / riding career, that experience teaches much, that skills are learned over years through that experience and developed knowledge. Also that mobile may have not existed when he passed his test (agree with he map obviously).
However we will come back to the fact that people can develop bad habits and convince themselves that their actions are safe or 'safe enough'.
This is where good education (through many methods) count, and that the perception of fair rules and regulations. This latest in a long line of motorist 'auto enforcement' than considered or proportional enforcement.

Well I have not been able to judge and I have tried to take you word and your serious concerns. It may well be that as you describe that his driving was well below par and needed immediate intervention by the police. I have only tried to look at the whole situation and consider the possible best actions for you to contemplate. I am grateful that you have brought this here to discuss. It is very interesting.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I do have to say for balance that in my years of travelling through London (latterly 20 odd miles a day) this was the single worst example of obvious driver distraction I've witnessed.

And it sounds very bad too, but upon consideration did you see my point about exacerbating the situation than diffusing and helping?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

No, not really, in this case he had already made his choice, I simply asked him if what he though he was doing was a good idea. Had a policeman spotted him I suspect he would have had a very slow three points + fine and a good ticking off and no sympathy, regardless of his situation.

Weepej wrote
If the court asks you a question you must answer it truthfully right?[/quote]


And if the truthfull answer is "do not know as we shared the driving" then what? Please answer.

Thanks

Then there can be no prosecution for speeding.


If you genuinely don't know then clearly that's the right answer to give the court, to give a different answer would be perjury.

You've got to wonder what occasioned the need for such an urgent change! Maybe a different arm for straights and corners?

Going back to my original post on this thread about inappropriate sentencing:

http://www.grumpyoldsod.com/criminal.asp

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.