Safe Speed Forums

Anyone else remember a similar accident a year or so back, kid killed on quad bike ( given by parents as present ) at (I think this time of year ) ---and the result - can't find it on a search.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Forget 7 year olds, I can name 5 year old's that would make most people look like rank amateurs on a bike if they went head to head with them.

While this is a very sad event, the father is wholly responsible for the chain of events that led to his daughters death by allowing her to use a motorised vehicle on a public road in the first place.



If it's the one I'm thinking of, I seem to recall that the actual cause of death was the childs head hitting the kerb as he & his machine parted company while it was ridden on the pavement.
The quad in question was also one of the battery powered variety that wasn't capable of going faster than an adult out on a light jog.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Think that's the one -seem to remember at the time the driver was being blamed, not parents - can't remember what happened.



Just take a look round most waste grounds --don't see as many now on road ,or possibly it's a case that they're wearing helmets

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

They might have the technicalities off to a fine art, but not the necessary common-sense and reasoning that (usually) comes with age.........

And cannot be taught!

What motivates you to state that the other driver is blameless without knowing what went on?

Just because people drive illegally on the road does not mean you can mow them over without blame.

From that story it looks like the emergency services weren't even called to the actual incident.

If this is what happened then its a reminder to all that you should always report such an event to the emergency services at the time, no matter what the circumstance.

I never said the other driver was without blame, and I never implied that you can "mow people over without blame".


What I said was (for the second time) is that the father's reckless actions in allowing a child to use a motorised vehicle on a public highway resulted in the death of that child.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Sorry, misunderstood you. I've seen similar words used when people try to blame the originator of the situation that led to a crash for the subsequent crash (i.e. pile up on a motorway is 100% the fault of the first driver to collide with something else and nobody else is to blame).

Botach, that's one of mine I think.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... d+bike+ban

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Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

Yep -CJG - can you remember what happened to driver .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Its a differant story when a politician kills someone then .

Labour peer Lord Nazir Ahmed hit and killed a driver on Christmas Day in a horrific motorway pile-up.

Baron Ahmed, 49, was quizzed by police after the smash, which took place as he was driving his wife and elderly mother.

Last night the peer - who recently helped free teddy row teacher Gillian Gibbons from a jail in Sudan - recalled the "horrendous" smash.

He said: "I saw a red Audi facing the wrong way. There was nothing I could do about it."

full story here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories ... -20266093/

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nigel_bytes

This surely is DWDC as a minimum? However unfortunate, he should have been observing sufficiently far ahead to be able to deal with such an eventuality.

Exactly Oscar.
No matter how well my kids (or any kids come to that) perform on the track, there is no way on this earth that I would even contemplate letting them ride on a public road.



DWDC might be a bit harsh Roger, it could be that he was momentarily distracted for whatever reason and when he looked up it was too late to do anything because of the speeds involved.

Obviously allowing yourself to be distracted is something that should be avoided (even more so at motorway speeds), but it happens and I don't think there is a lot any of us can do about it.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

1. Riding motorised vehicle - including quad bike under age 16 -:listenup: illegal


She was only 7 years old und her brother 10 years.


2. Small light at front. I do not know if children wearing hi-viz or light colours or had helmets. But still illegal for them to be on the road

3. Parent was driving in front. How far in front? It still not supervising them properly und it still illegal as well as practically criminal stupidity on his part to allow no matter what the pester power of exxcited children was.

We become very hard of hearing when they pester und we like the word NEIN.. NON .. NONO NO! . It work quite effecitvely if said the right way )

4. Woman who did not want to be named but who was "watching" children from rear window ist reported as saying that a car passed them in opposite direction. Then one of the little lights went out und she thought one of children had fallen from this contraption. This does not sound as if the other driver was "tooling it down this narrow lane in the dark"

5. Child "appeared OK" .. so both drivers went home. Again this not sound as if the bereaved thought the other driver was either drunk, drugged or dangerous.. nor does it sound as if any details were exchanged from all the media reports on this.

6. Child not taken to hospital as she should have been just for a check over. perhaps because the father knew that the accident was the result of an illegal act und feared some awkward questions

7. We do not know if this child riding abreast of brother.. overtook or just lost control on the bend at that fatal split second when she hit the oncoming car.

8. But... these kids should not have been on the road in daylight - never mind in the dark on a dark narrow lane which all locals say ist a well used one. There are places to play und places to ride these quad bikes.. public highways are not one of them.


Our kids? They go karting - on a proper track with the proper equipment.


They play on the tractor mowers we have in the summer

They have bicycles und we bought youngest new bikes for Christmas. Our youngest was thrilled to bits with her new "proper bicycle" (with stabilisers as she only just three years now.) She ride around our kitchen .. with my veggie colander on her head on Christmas morning. und then in the rain on the afternoon out in garden. We then drove to local park where she und the others could play more properly.. but no way do we allow them unsupervised nor without proper gear on the main road until we sure they have road sense und Bikeability know-how under belts.

There ist no way on this planet that I would think this parent made a responsible decision that day

To try to be kind to him.. I would think - knowing kids .. being excited und thrilled with new presents .. I think the children probably pestered to be allowed to ride these bikes back home und he caved in to them. Accident und trauma.. they almost always bad decision of total common sense failure


. He has to live with that forever.. und his action cause trauma for the other road user who will also be blaming herself too.

There talk of prosecuting the parent over this. Sadly, though it seem like rubbing salt into his grief.. sometimes it can also help over the guilt he must feel too.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

This is one of the most difficult questions we are presented with Wildy. What does society do about the cause of an unintentional death which has at its root, irresponsible, illegal or just plain stupid behaviour?
Do we spare the perpetrator the extra burden of prosecution with the possibility of imprisonment on the basis that they now feel guilty about what they did? If so, then aren't we all potentially one-off killers?
Jailing the individual doesn't bring the dead person back, but does it act as a deterent to someone who may be tempted to try something similar? How do we know whether it does or it doesn't?
And doesn't society have a moral responsibility to punish someone who, intentionally or not, oversees the death of soemone (as opposed to kills per-se) over whom they have a duty of care?
I fall on the side of, yes we should prosecute (although not necessarily jail) because to not do so would be negligent in itself.

I don't like the idea of blaming the driver automatically, even if they were intoxicated, nor do I like the idea of blaming the child, even if they were on the road illegally. Of course, in that situation, both would have been guilty of a separate offence in law, but legality or lack thereof doesn't equal blame, for anyone other than the insurance companies!

What we need to do is learn from incidents such as this. Instead of pointing fingers, we should be asking what can be done to prevent them in future. I use the 'we' here to denote society.

I think one lesson to come from this is that (especially during the winter months) it is important to ensure that your headlights are functioning properly, and are as clean as possible. Also to expect the unexpected on all roads, particularly single track. Give yourself every chance to be the one who is in a position to be able to do all the compensating required to avoid an incident.

Perhaps the more important lesson though, is that we should not allow our children to take the the public highway illegally, without training or safety equipment and on unroadworthy vehicles. It compounds the dangers exponentially. As compassionate as I do feel for the grief-sticken father, I do believe that prosecution in this case would be in the public interest, to discourage him and other parents from repeating the mistake.

I too on the side of saying the parent should be prosecuted .. but not jailed as this punish the other children in the family. But that child deserved a better standard of care towards her safety.

But ist a tricky one. We once posted in defence of McCann couple that we seen worse parenting skills than theirs in the resorts up here. This one of these cases we had in mind at the time.

But when a parent.. it relentless 24/7 job. It require that extra look-out to protect them but not smother them nor stunt their development. I think me und the Mad Doc juggle hot boiled eggs at times when trying to keep them in check. So far we have finely turned out omelettes aux fines herbes und the poached und the Spiegelei with the dippy soldiers .. but have not scrambled them so far...

It hard work though.. und part of this parental work require us to have that common sense und the responsible strain which try to teach safety .. risk assessments.. but not to give into or encourage foolhardy impetuous red misty type actions... if you know what I try to say here.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

This is one case I had in mind too, the McCanns do not cut an image of typical 'bad parents' do they?
Two things disturb me about their case:

a. Gerry McCann in particular cannot bring himself to admit that what they did was irresponsible. The best he can muster is 'naive'. Arrogance? I certainly think so.
b. In the number of phone-in shows on the radio I am staggered by the number of people who say they have done the same thing and others who say they would do it again :o The general gist of their rationale is that this was a one in a million occurence that is unlikely to happen to them. These supposedly reasonable people appear oblivious to the fact that it is not through fear of abduction that one doesn't leave young children unattended but because of the chance that one of the other dozen or so things a child left alone in a strange flat can do to harm him/herself may happen.

It so tricksy to comment without being "holier than thou".


We foster so many kids in reality.. from all walk of life. Some long term// some short term.

We have then a decent inkling of what make a child tick.. but we still caught out at times. Wayne came close..to beating us. He truanted badly. We almost end up in bother over it. I post on PH while I wait for him to get ready (It now a morning coffee habit ) I take him to register. Mad Doc und William (if home from Uni) und the twins on the alert to nab at the other exit

We enrol at same school as our own twins .. it made a difference to this child... to have real discipline und an interest in his work. He now about to qualify with the initial requirement to train as a proper Corgi plumber. He also want to learn beyond.. he do IAM course und ask me und Ted to bankroll him for an OU degree course which we do as he part of this family now.


but each child different .. you learn as constant. You cannot let yourself be "surprised" by anything.




Perhaps. Perhaps a mix of both. We in odd situation as we know of this guy's actual work professionally ..

He train at Glasgow. Ted train at St Andrews/Manchester.

We attend socials for Scottish trained medics as results. I think I twirled a reel with them once. I do not forget faces. IG think I should be a for this.

It odd situation - because professionally per all work he associated with .. he ist really very competent in job he does. The case of the abandoned child. ... it just not the sort of thing you expect to hear of from this type.

I think then more "guilty denial und guiltiest anger possibly" that he been so stupid. Professional arrogance perhaps fuel this denial too.

I try to understand situations beyond what press tell me.. if possible.

We not unsympathetic to the late Nathan Owen either - whose family will be so sad just now.. We just know there more to it than lyrically reported. in favour of that child .. but that does not mean we have no empathy/sympathy .. because we do as parents/foster parents of wilful teenagers. You have to be firm.. friendly ,, not dictating but steering und prodding them in the right direction without making them feel "awkward"

It really ist 24/7 life sentence just as my parents warned me.

Just because G Mcann does not appear to show emotion in public does not mean much. It not sign that this man help conceal an accidental death.


No evidence of doping in twins reported. If I had hair or tissue .. I could test for this und I would be able to establish very quickly quantity absorbed und over what period of time. That part of my trialling work. It as normal a test as reciting the alphabet to a teacher of tots.

Some people appear calm when world crumble around them. Ist rich tapestry of human life with very differing ways of handling bereavement und stresses.


It not a realistic enough sign to me that he accomplice in covering up some incident to a daughter who look very image of him. She her Papa's daughter from those photos alright - despite some tabloid innuendo to contrary. You can even see the mother in her too. in the colouring und one profile photo of mother beside early released photo of the child at her play.


I just see a man in guilty denial of leaving children asleep in hotel room und the worst unimaginable happening.

But my profession? Ja.. there ist "arrogance" within it too.


Ted ist now in later 40s. Gerry is 39 years. In their training era - especially in UK.. I think "arrogance" set in as these "cream of crop" to reach Uni.

Ach.. Europe .. we have same competition for training places - with the top crop making to med school.

Jeff.. I orignally train as medic .. always wanted to research medicine though.

The unfortunate incident just brought forward by few years und I kept busy in the recovery period by studying hard to pick up reins of new career path. It helped me. I was busy .. but not too busy - which ist something I must get across to Claire at this time in her life. I phone her. She OK-ish. I will call her again. She need an "ear" und I will try to call her whenever she signal to me or Ted a need as well as the random chats to check she OK und coping. But I digress as I always do


But back to what I was saying about the inherent arrogance within the UK medical profession..

I train initially in medicine. I come to UK for visit to cousin Charles (IG). I am in his local pub. Some local ask me what I study. I reply. They over me like a licking rash und place me on some weird pedestal as "super clever"


I never able to understand .. und to this day.. I still not understand that.


Back home it was "so what.. all students unite und alike und right rebels " We held engineering und finance students in higher esteem .. as they responsible for the worth und progress of the nation.

But UK has odd ideas as a nation.

I can say that as someone not brought up here und get aways with it

So perhaps Gerry McCann has the arrogance of profession .. but over-ridden with sheer guilty denial of the stupidity of leaving the children whilst he went for his evening meal.

But.. having said that. He in holiday resort which supposedly safe - und we see the dropped guard all too often when some relax far too much. You would be amazed at what we observe in the season. It really scares us.

In charitable mode .. we concede this party of holidaying medics became oblivious to dangers und there ist also a danger when you go on holiday as a group like this too .. as in singleton/dinky lifestyle indulgences.

Und you cannot afford this when you have children. They have to come as priority



I lose count of number of meals we have as room service whilst our children sleep. I like room service. It "luxury" to me. Not having to dress up for dinner.. not having to be on best "social" behaviour.. not having to cook for a mini-army.. being waited on... having the dishes cleared away for me..




You have room with balcony und have the table set over nice view.. und it just bliss


Had I been in this party.. I think I choose the room service for some nights und the nanny service for others - und even with the nanny service .. I still check on my children after every three mouthfuls of food.

I not really settle like that ... so I do not do the "with pals hols!" anyway.

But we see so much here.. so we do not condemn as "derangedly incompetent".. but "silly.. duped.. naive.. but also in an kind of arrogant und also guilt ridden denial"

I do not think "accident/cover up/complicity und most extreme loyalty test of pals" but this very subjective as per our training .. it just "normal reaction" to treat.. to preserve the life.. to fight God und the Devil for it. To prove we can work the better miracle without a "legend/lore/myth". ?

If your own./... you try to move heaven und earth to keep them alive. You are like Claire.. numb with shock .. when you lose a loved one. That couple .. their pals.. they could not act so.. so.. callously without a big give aways

I cannot really now work out who did what.. when as we have so much daft speculations whch seem to be a right melange of Harold Robins.. Syd Sheldon.. Higgins Clarke.. Chandler.. King.. Christie.. Marsh.. Osmington Mills .. Greene.. Graham... whatever.. to extent the head just whirls.



Oh ja.. It what I get at. So many leave the kids. To date .. we see parents leave kids canoeing alone in Derwentwater..


Swimming way out into the lake


Oblivious to current.. undertow

Walking very close to edge of sheer drop

Leaving on the greens at Bowness whilst they go to chippy kiosk..

Letting the children walk beyond sight on the Fells und then panicking when they get lost..



Letting children.. j-walk..ride bikes und other vehicles without adequate supervision or lighting..

But the main daftness remain..

We see the kiddy fiddler close to home.

But they prey on holiday resorts .. like von Aesch who killed Ylenia from my home Kanton.



But why so silly..to leave a child alone?


But close to home.. a child can vomit.. ( we been there too many time..)



Have nightmares . I have been there with Zoe und Andrew in particular. I should not harp that we adopted as this somehow isolate them... but their pasts were not nice und we thank God each day that these two survive und are healthy feisty kids with hopeful promise ahead.

Fall from cot or pram. I did so myself as baby . Some say I land on head und this explain much


Choke on sweet ..



Wake up.. wander.. panic if mama or papa not there for them.

It why we have room service if they too tired to dine with us.. und they sleep after very light supper.

BUT to bring back to the quad bike..

This bloke knew he was breaking law..

The children were exposed to a very severe danger on a road known to be a danger.

In charitable mode ..am prepared to accept a cave into pester power just as I can accept a "dropped guard on a holiday.."

But he every bit if not more incompetent as the McCann couple as regard exposing a small tot to danger.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Yes, I read this quote from a Hayley something in a couple of papers, saying something like this was a known rat run.

So, great place to take your kids for some illegal road use in the dark.