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 Post subject: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:17 
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This was posted on a biker forum I'm a member of. I wanted to share it and ask for opinions as to who was at fault.

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A motorcyclist accused of causing the death of a woman by dangerous driving has told a court that he was not responsible for the accident.
Elizabeth Jepson, 65, was fatally injured while walking along the pavement of Bolton Road, Ashton, when the motor bike ploughed into her.

The rider, Matthew Phair told the jury at Liverpool Crown Court: "I feel responsible for her dying but not the accident."

Asked about his driving before the accident he described it as: "Not dangerous. I reckon it was good."

The court has heard that he lost control of his 600cc machine when the driver of a Vauxhall Frontera turned right across his path to go into the Tesco supermarket.

Peter Cadwallader, prosecuting, alleged that Phair had been driving "too fast, at a dangerous idiotic speed."

He said that the Frontera may have contributed to the accident as it turned right across Phair's path. The driver had clearly had not seen the motorbike until the last second, possibly because of the machine's speed.

"Whatever your conclusions are in relation to the Vauxhall Frontera it is the Crown's contention that the defendant was at least partly to blame due to his dangerously high speed," said Mr Cadwallader.

Phair, 22, said that he had been travelling at "roughly 40mph" along the 30mph road at the time. He saw the 4x4 coming the opposite way and indicating to turn right.

"He started to move and then hesitated. He was partly in my carriageway but I still had room to get through. I thought he had seen me and stopped so I carried on.

"I got nearer still, pretty much on top of him, and he pulled across quickly. I did not think he would do that. I slammed on my back brake and then let go of it and I threw the bike down on its side and went round in front of it. I hit the kerb in front of the garage forecourt and it bounced."

The court was told that as well as ploughing into Mrs Jepson, of Greenfields Crescent, Ashton, the bike also struck a wall and electricity box. Phair had no recollection of any of the collisions.

He was seriously injured in the crash on Sunday, July 10, last year.

Phair, of Fourth Street, Bamfurlong, denies causing the death of Mrs Jepson by driving dangerously.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:28 
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Unequivocally, the Frontera.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:35 
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'40mph' certainly isn't enough to absolve the Frontera driver of fundamental responsibility for the crash.

It's not unlike the Gary Hart crash where the error of one (Hart) caused a train crash indirectly. It seems that this time we have erroneously charged the train driver.

From the description, and from an advanced rider perspective, the unfortunate biker had all the information needed to avoid the crash. He ASSUMED that the Frontera would not 'restart', and it turns of that that assumption was fatal. If he'd acted early to brake hard and make safe, I'm guessing that no collision would have taken place.

'Health Warning': It's possible that other parties have different evidence and a different view to offer. We must not assume that we have all the facts. Instead we should analyse the facts presented and issue the analysis with this 'health warning'.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 20:44 
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I slammed on my back brake and then let go of it and I threw the bike down on its side and went round in front of it. I hit the kerb in front of the garage forecourt and it bounced."


OK, I'm no biker but that sounds like "screw anyone else, I'm getting out of here".

Yes the Frontera is to blame for the initial accident but the bike rider admits to deliberatley allowing his vehicle to go out of control.

He also failed to assume all other road users are numpties otherwise he would have seen this one coming.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 21:17 
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Homer wrote:
OK, I'm no biker but that sounds like "screw anyone else, I'm getting out of here".

Yes the Frontera is to blame for the initial accident but the bike rider admits to deliberatley allowing his vehicle to go out of control.

He also failed to assume all other road users are numpties otherwise he would have seen this one coming.

I see that you're not a biker! "Laying down the bike" when all else fails can be a life-saver. Thankfully, I only needed to do it twice in my couple of decades of riding and on both occasions I walked away with a little gravel rash instead of being carted off on a stretcher or worse. Given the choice of riding straight into a T-bone or laying down the bike, I suspect that many bikers would do what Mr Phair did. If a crash is inevitable, the safest thing to do is usually to part company with the bike - to have it go in one direction and you to go in another (ideally away from harm).

Once you've laid down the bike and kicked away, the bike is on its own. AFAICT, it's sheer misfortune that the bike hit the kerb and bounced "the wrong way".

In hindsight, it's easy to suggest that Mr Phair didn't anticipate properly. However, we don't know whether he made eye-contact with the driver of the Frontera. I know that if I made eye-contact with the driver of a vehicle over which I had "right of way" and that vehicle had stopped I would have discounted the hazard and continued.
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He started to move and then hesitated. He was partly in my carriageway but I still had room to get through. I thought he had seen me and stopped so I carried on.
IOW, the driver of the Frontera had driven as though he had seen the bike and was giving priority. The Frontera then started off a second time, which is what caused the collision.

My vote goes for the driver of the Frontera driving without due care and attention. However, that's a very cautious vote because (of course) I'm only going on hearsay and don't have the full facts.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 01:02 
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I'll accept that ditching the bike may have been the only option, though I find that unlikely if teh rider had not already made an error of judgement.

willcove wrote:
Homer wrote:
In hindsight, it's easy to suggest that Mr Phair didn't anticipate properly. However, we don't know whether he made eye-contact with the driver of the Frontera. I know that if I made eye-contact with the driver of a vehicle over which I had "right of way" and that vehicle had stopped I would have discounted the hazard and continued.

I would have continued, with caution. You can't be certain that someone who appears to be looking at you isn't looking past you (or just looking at a bug on his windscreen), especially when you are riding a bike.
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Quote:
He started to move and then hesitated. He was partly in my carriageway but I still had room to get through. I thought he had seen me and stopped so I carried on.
IOW, the driver of the Frontera had driven as though he had seen the bike and was giving priority.

On the other hand he drove like a numpty and should have been treat as one. He may have stalled it or got the wrong gear for all the biker knew.

Sorry, I can't absolve either party of some blame. On the information we have I would say 75/25 split between the bike and the Vauxhall.

The Frontera driver failed to spot the bike, the biker failed to spot the numpty. And bikers really should be more aware of numpties than the rest of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 09:03 
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willcove wrote:
I see that you're not a biker! "Laying down the bike" when all else fails can be a life-saver. Thankfully, I only needed to do it twice in my couple of decades of riding
Is that not littering? :hehe:

But seriously, I agree with you Will. At the end of the day, yes - maybe the biker should have expected the Frontera to pull in front of him (after all, it is a 4x4, with associated attitude!) but you can't attribute an accident to being the fault of the innocent party, just because they didn't expect someone to pull across them.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 09:23 
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Homer wrote:
And bikers really should be more aware of numpties than the rest of us.


Homer, you've already admitted that you're not a biker and that's really rather odd statement.

Most of us ARE more aware of numpties, that's why we're still alive. For all we know, the rider might have only just passed his test. The fact that he's 22, riding a 600cc bike and admits to using the BACK brake would suggest to me that he'd not long passed DAS. (Conjecture I know, but I find it hard to believe that an experienced rider would have made the same error - I know when I passed my test it took me a good 6 months to have enough faith in the front brake to use it properly).

If the bike hadn't hit and killed the pedestrian then the story would be different - we would all be blaming the car driver and saying how unlucky the biker was. I'm not saying that the biker was completely innocent, but the fact remains that the car should not have driven across his path. As much as it pains me to say this, the biker would probably have been better off not laying the bike down and riding into the car.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 09:37 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Most of us ARE more aware of numpties, that's why we're still alive. For all we know, the rider might have only just passed his test. The fact that he's 22, riding a 600cc bike and admits to using the BACK brake would suggest to me that he'd not long passed DAS.
Spot on Sixy. I only use my back brake for subtle reductions in speed - my front brake is my best friend! I agree, it does sound as if the biker was inexperienced, as he used his back brake in an emergency situation - but the situation was still caused by the Frontera, so IMO is 100% at fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:01 
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BottyBurp wrote:
Is that not littering? :hehe:

Absolutely not :shock: EPA 1990 s.87 (2) provides that no offence is committed under this section where the depositing of the thing is authorised by law. Now the law doesn't make any stipulation that the thing has to be the right way up. The biker has a licence and the bike presumably had a VED... :twisted: :lol: :lol:

BottyBurp wrote:
But seriously, I agree with you Will. At the end of the day, yes - maybe the biker should have expected the Frontera to pull in front of him (after all, it is a 4x4, with associated attitude!) but you can't attribute an accident to being the fault of the innocent party, just because they didn't expect someone to pull across them.

:roll: FYI, where I live drivers of 4x4s are generally courteous to other road users - but then so are most other drivers.

Back to the incident at hand. I think that perhaps Homer might be asking the wrong question. There is a world of difference between "who is to blame" (which is what was asked) and "is there anything the biker could have done to avoid it." (or "is there anything the pedestrian could have done", for that.) In the extreme, the biker could have avoided the accident by not getting out of bed that day - but it was unreasonable when he awoke to expect that car would T-bone him. I suspect that it was also unreasonable (albeit to a lesser extent) to expect that having apparently given way, the car would resume the turn when the bike was almost on top of him.

FWIW, I did some further research on this. AFAICT, the Tesco store is the Tesco Express on Bolton Road, Ashton in Makerfield WN4 8PF. Here is a link to the scene. The Tesco Express is on the lower side of Bolton Road, so the bike would have been travelling right to left along several hundred yards of absolutely straight road at about 40 mph. It's inconceivable that a driver exercising due care and attention wouldn't see the bike - particularly if the biker was using headlights!

Although speeding is unlawful, most drivers do it and so it is unreasonable not to allow for vehicles travelling at 10mph over the limit. FWIW, I suspect that 40mph might even be the average free travelling speed on that road. So, what was the primary cause? Was it someone travelling at a very predictable 10 mph over the speed limit, or was it someone unpredictably turning across traffic that had priority?

Of course, we don't know the full facts. (For example, we don't know whether the biker was using headlights.) Thus we can only speculate.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:06 
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willcove wrote:
Absolutely not :shock: EPA 1990 s.87 (2) provides that no offence is committed under this section where the depositing of the thing is authorised by law. Now the law doesn't make any stipulation that the thing has to be the right way up. The biker has a licence and the bike presumably had a VED... :twisted: :lol: :lol:
:rotfl:

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:26 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Homer wrote:
And bikers really should be more aware of numpties than the rest of us.


Homer, you've already admitted that you're not a biker and that's really rather odd statement.


It isn't odd really - he's just saying bikers have more to lose - which is true.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 03:07 
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From what I've read here my guess is 50/50 - Frontera for pulling across and the motorcyclist for assuming that he wouldn't restart.

Just an of the cuff judgment.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:26 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
From what I've read here my guess is 50/50 - Frontera for pulling across and the motorcyclist for assuming that he wouldn't restart.

Just an of the cuff judgment.

So if instead of a bike the vehicle was a bus, car or HGV they would have been 50/50 at fault if the Frontera pulled across their path? :?

The Frontera driver was guilty of a violation of the bike's right of way and was 100% at fault. The biker could have done more to anticipate that event and could have reacted better but the fact remains that the accident would not have occurred if the Frontera had remained stationary on its own side of the road.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:36 
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Just to clarify, my understanding is that the Frontera pulled out in front and stopped - which is wrong, I also understand that the motorcyclist was aware of the hazard and chose to press on when holding back would have been more prudent.

Or am I missing something ???

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 15:11 
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I think I can bridge the gap between Mrs Miggins and Safety Engineer.

Mrs Miggins is really talking about legal 'blameworthyness'.

Safety Engineer is really talking a missed opportunity to avoid.

Most two vehicles crashes fall into a general pattern where one makes a mistake and the other fails to avoid the mistake of the first.

In legal term the Frontera is virtually 100% to blame.

But as an advanced driver, I would be kicking myself all round the room if I'd done what the biker did.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 15:21 
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But as an advanced driver, I would be kicking myself all round the room if I'd done what the biker did.


... or the motorist ;-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 16:53 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
I think I can bridge the gap between Mrs Miggins and Safety Engineer.

Mrs Miggins is really talking about legal 'blameworthyness'.

Safety Engineer is really talking a missed opportunity to avoid.

Most two vehicles crashes fall into a general pattern where one makes a mistake and the other fails to avoid the mistake of the first.

In legal term the Frontera is virtually 100% to blame.

But as an advanced driver, I would be kicking myself all round the room if I'd done what the biker did.

Spot on Paul. So much of what is taught to learner motorcyclists is about precisely this type of scenario; unfortunately you can lead a horse to water...

(if he wants to jump off the top of the waterfall there's not much you can do to stop him. :shock: )

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 17:24 
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Roger wrote:
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But as an advanced driver, I would be kicking myself all round the room if I'd done what the biker did.


... or the motorist ;-)


goes without saying... :P

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 Post subject: Re: Who was at fault?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 01:16 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
admits to using the BACK brake would suggest to me that he'd not long passed DAS. (Conjecture I know, but I find it hard to believe that an experienced rider would have made the same error.


I know this is old news but...

it's not necessarily an error. It's a lot softer and easier landing if you slew the bike sideways with the back brake as you're bailing rather than jumping off the back.


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