Safe Speed Forums

The Chief Constable
Surrey Police HQ
Mount Browne
Sandy Lane
Guildford
Surrey
GU3 1HG



Dear Sir,

I wish to draw your attention to what I consider to be extremely dangerous siting for mobile speed enforcement on the A308 between the Crooked Billet roundabout, Staines and the Fordbridge roundabout, Ashford.

This stretch of road is a two-lane dual carriageway with no junctions or footpath and very little pedestrian or cyclist activity. I know the road extremely well as I travelled it every working day for about 12 years, up until a year or so ago. The road used to be NSL but the speed limit was reduced to 50mph about 3 years ago. I understand that there had been a number of cross-over crashes during the preceding period, including some fatalities.

This stretch of road includes some sweeping bends which, if taken at excessively high speed or if poorly driven (e.g. mid-corner braking, coarse steering etc.) can result in loss of control. However, a reasonably competent driver in an average, roadworthy car would have no difficulty in driving the bends at 70mph or more without coming even close to the limit of grip in normal conditions. Therefore, it is only wildly excessive speed (I’d suggest 100mph or more) or ‘bad driving’ (such as mentioned above) that will result in loss of control.

Moreover, the road does not present as a 50mph road by comparison with other 50mph limited roads in the locality, principally because of the absence of any common hazards. For example, on the A308 itself, the 50mph limit continues from Fordbridge roundabout nearly up to the Sunbury Cross roundabout. The last part of that stretch (from just before the BP garage) is quite different in character, having multiple shops, junctions, houses, traffic lights, service roads etc., so the reason for the speed limit is quite clear. For another example, the road from Laleham village towards Shepperton is also 50mph limit, but this is single carriageway with footpath, houses, junctions and other vehicle turning points.

In addition, the risk of cross-over incidents on the A308 arose principally because of the absence of barriers in the central reservation. However, central armco barriers were installed along the entire stretch of road during the last year (although the 50mph limit remained), and I would assume that cross-over type collisions are now unlikely. The risk of crashing due to wildly excessive speed and bad driving of course remains, albeit with mitigated consequences. However, acknowledging the possibility of poor driving and excessive speed resulting in loss of control on those bends, it seems to me that the last thing needed, from a road safety perspective, is to introduce an additional factor that may induce loss of control.

I was astonished, therefore, on driving this stretch this morning (for the first time for some months) to see a mobile speed enforcement van sited about 200 metres past the exit of the left-hand bend approximately in the middle of the Crooked Billet - Ashford stretch. I had previously seen the enforcement van in the layby just before the Fordbridge roundabout. This lies approx. 400m past the exit to the final bend but it is unlikely that any speeding driver would see and react to the presence of the van before having straightened his wheels.

By contrast, at the moment a speeding driver catches sight of an enforcement van sited in the middle location (where I saw it today), he would still have steering lock applied and would quite possibly be accelerating out of the bend. A harsh application of brakes at such a moment, as I am sure you are aware, could have disastrous consequences. You may say that a driver who is not speeding will have no reason to brake. That is quite true (although many drivers do brake for speed cameras even when they are not speeding) but, with respect, is also entirely irrelevant. What matters is what drivers actually do, not what they should do or might do if they were more restrained or better trained. The undeniable fact is (and I witnessed it myself, having been so concerned that I turned round, back to the Crooked Billet roundabout, in order to drive the stretch again) that a driver travelling at high speed round that bend is quite likely to brake on seeing the enforcement van at precisely the worst possible moment from the perspective of vehicle stability. I should add that there is no apparent reason why, if enforcement at this particular site is considered to offer real road safety benefits (which I personally doubt), the location of the van could not be moved 200 metres or so further away from the bend exit, just before the turn-in to the following right hand bend. It would have no little or no practical effect on enforcement because of the range of the speed measurement device but, the fact of the van being some 400 metres distant instead of 200 metres distant at the moment it comes into view of a fast moving vehicle is likely to mean that any breaking reaction is less abrupt or will be delayed at least until the driver has straightened his wheels.

I wish to put on record my prediction that a crash will be provoked by the presence of speed enforcement at this location. As you are probably aware, there is increasing evidence that the presence of speed cameras at some locations is provoking or inducing crashes that would not have occurred if they had not been present. It is undeniable that such a negative effect is possible. The presence of speed enforcement at this location, in my opinion, makes such a negative effect not merely possibly but quite probable. I urge you to take action to cease enforcement here immediately.

Yours faithfully

Well articulated mate, as I would expect from yourself.

Any chance you could pinpoint the van location in Multimap?

Cheers

The bend looks worse on here than it does on the map.

That's clever. But why worse? It just looks like an easy flowing bend to me. BTW, the scamvan was just about where you can see the dark car travelling W-E.

Why do you want to go faster than the posted limit?

If someone was lying in the road, they would deserve to be run over! (....and thank God you're not in the force!)

Observer - what a hilarious response.
Your argument is as follows:
A speeding driver might brake too harshly in order to not get caught speeding, and thereby cause an accident, because of the location of the police van.
But if the driver can see the van, the van can see the driver. If the driver is speeding, he is breaking the law, and it's precisely because of stupid speeders that the police van is there! What if there were a person lying the road and the speeder came round the bend?
Your argument seems to be that the police should give speeders a chance to slow down so they aren't done for speeding. What would be the point of that? Police site themselves where they think they will catch people speeding - i.e. where they are NEEDED, because pedestrians can't cross the road safely, or some selfish idiot has killed somebody because he can't bring himself to drive within the stated limits...

If I were that chief constable, I'd put a black mark against your name, and make sure you were watched while you were out driving.

especially the tens of thousands of victims of road 'accidents' every year...

Why do you want to go faster than the posted limit?

If I were that chief constable, I'd put a black mark against your name, and make sure you were watched while you were out driving.
You can be sure that MOST people agree with the police on this one - especially the tens of thousands of victims of road 'accidents' every year...
Get a life.

Why do you want to go faster than the posted limit?

<a load of garbage>