Safe Speed Forums

I have just finished watching a program I recorded a few days ago about the people who were trapped by the fires inside the twin towers and were forced to jump.
The program claimed that certain groups including some families thought of these acts as suicide and so they were therefore considered sinners and were even refused burial on consecrated ground.
I would just like to know the opinions of any 'believers' if there is any out there.

ok, so there's footage of a few of them jumping but for the majority it's highly doubtful that anyone would know if they jumped or went down with the building. Sounds like a load of tabloid bs to me.

Well if you watch the footage you will see them jumping well before the collapse but I can't be arsed debating a moot point I just want to hear an opinion I struggle to understand if thats ok with you.

But can you tell from the footage who it is who is jumping?

In any case this is exactly the kind of pointless misery that religious dogma can cause.

That's the way I see it too.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's Like pissing in the wind this like.



THREAD CLOSED!!!!!!!!!

I am a "believer". Salvation is based on faith.....Nothing more nothing less.

The notion of consecrated ground is rubbish. It was invented by the church in about the 5th century to try and control the population by having the threat that there would be no resurrection for them. What happens to people lost at sea? It just goes to show how ridiculous the whole thing was.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Don't be so impatient!

It's only been going a couple of hours.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I am very impatient and just want to know the views of religious people on the act of jumping from the twin towers and how they were viewed from a religious standpoint as the program gave me the impression it was regarded as a sin.
I'm not taking the piss or ridiculing the church I would just like to know without the subject being diverted.
Thank you Gizmo a start has been made.

Another interesting subject. I will try and explain as best I can. The Catholic faith relies on the fact that the priest can give absolution for sins, hence confession, last rites etc. None of these things have any foundation in the Bible. There is says without any ambiguity whatsoever that only God can forgive sins. No one ever went to the grave with out the burden of sin. That’s why Christ died. He was a sacrifice for our sin. If you are square with him you are OK, and only you will know that.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Paul,

For what it's worth, I can tell you my musings on the subject.

The issue with not being burried on consecrated ground, stems from whether suicide is an unforgivable sin or not. We have a law that says "Thou shalt not kill". Although not specifically mentioned in the bible, this presumably includes killing oneself.

Once someone is dead, their body is just....well.... a body. It is just an empty husk. So in terms of what happens to a "soul", it doesn't matter where the body is buried.

Anyone can be burried anywhere. As a mark of respect for someone's life, and for the lives of those that are now left behind, it is right for someone to be given a decent burial. It also helps us to come to terms with it (I am sure all of us can relate to that).

Jesus referred to the religious leaders 2000 years ago, as "A brood of vipers". Too concerened with perceived rules and regulations and not concerned with what is actually important. They were missing the point entirely.

So personally, I think it is pointless, and most of all hypocritical to refuse to bury someone on consecrated ground purely on the basis they are a "sinner". By that same measure, everyone is a "sinner", so no-one should be buried on "consecrated" ground.

However.... I'm not sure if any of this answers your question or not.

The translation actualy means "thou shalt not commit murder"

Remember Moses brought the 10 commandments down from the mountain and he also introduced the death penalty for adultery. He himself actualy killed somebody in his younger life.

There is also a wrong belief that there are things called "mortal" sins. That is to say a sin which is so bad that you are doomed. This is also not mentioned in the Bible. Sin is sin. There is not a scale of severity.

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Speed camera policy Kills

You see I am not religious but don't believe others shouldn't be either and infact the religious people I have met seem to be more content in life.
Anyway is the act of placing yourself in a life threatening situation that goes 'belly up' then considered a sin.

Not at all. God says that we should put our lives in his hands. In fact he said "everything happens for our good according to his purpose"

Sometimes its hard to reconcile how things like the twin towers can possibly be for the good of those trapped but he does say "according to his purpose". For those who "believe" this life is just part of the journey. Eternity has so much more to offer.

If I were given the choice between burning to death and jumping I think I would probably jump. I do not think that this would have any bearing on my salvation.

The issue of "sin" is often misrepresented. It is not that complicated. God demands a blood sacrifice as redemption for sin (old testament). Jesus was our "redeemer", A redeemer is someone who pays a debt on your behalf. That is exactly what he did on the cross. he was sacrificed so we would not carry the burden of our own sin. It seems a bit harsh but if you understand this you have the very fundamentals of Christianity.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Definitely not.

So as usual it seems that human intervention tends to screw things up.
I have a 2yr old daughter who was severely ill six months ago and it didn't look good and we expected the worst. My Wife & I went to some very dark places but happily she pulled through to good health but it left me revaluating my beliefs and life etc.
I'm not saying I have become all born again but I am prepared to revaluate if you know what I mean. I am not so quick to dismiss as I once would.
And I have taken up skydiving (don't ask).
Thank for that fellas.

The trouble with religion, is that for hundreds of years, people have used it for their own ends.
If you REALLY believe there IS a God, why do you have to go to church? So that you can be controlled?
I'm not against churches, as properly run, they can be a great asset to a community, but too many of them are just places where they take and twist peoples beliefs.

That is NOT the language spoken by the people whose story is told in the bible. It's middle ages English.

If you look in traditional bibles, it says "King James Authorised Version".
It was just that - so many different versions existed, King James decided to regularise the whole issue, and picked this one as the one HE liked best.

Now we have so many new versions, we are back to the same point again! It's not a hard and fast rule book - it's simply a guide as to how you might like to conduct your life.
As to the accuracy of the Authorised Edition, just remember, most newspapers cannot even report events which happened yesterday, without getting bits wrong, or mis-quoting, so how can you expect much translated reports, of events hundreds or thousands of years ago to be historically correct?

It's what you feel in your heart which is most important, not what you are told to believe.
If one of your family jumped, and was refused the opportunity to be buried as you wished, then it is a major reason for saying F**K 'em, but of course, that is not the way it works in real life, the families just get torn apart by religios dogma, which as has been pointed out, has no real foundation.

Remember, the bible has no policy on whether we should use unleaded petrol because it is better for the environment or not, it simply leaves it up to us to treat others (and the earth) with respect, by illustrating past events as fact, and leaving us to make our own decisions on what is right. The rest is opinon formed by men in the pulpit!

So many [religions] claim God is on their side - He must sometimes wonder who is on His! (Oliver Cromwell)

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

That is exactly what it is!

If you look at the old testament it shows what God expects from his people. The Gospels follow that on with the new covenant. A covenant is a contract with God that is “legally” binding. So it in your interests to know the small print.

I am sorry but you argument is one used by those who want to believe a watered down view of faith.

We are given free will to make a choice, but we also have to face the consequences.

As I have tried to explain do not confuse biblical teaching with later day dogma.

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Speed camera policy Kills

so have you killed any children lately?

Well here's a few hard and fast rules you might like to bring to play:

Is that Scotland, Wales, or can we include France Holland and Belgium?

I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath.

Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

My wife's uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16.) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

You either accept that the Bible is hard and fast (Hell fire and damnation) or it got distorted a bit in the many translations and interpretations, and is a guide. I'm not sure about where you live, but here in Cumbria we're a bit more lenient on sinners!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!