Safe Speed Forums

Be careful Mike. I recall that you're a young chap, and you probably don't yet have the experience to know when other road users could sneak into your blind spot completely unseen. I'll give you a couple of examples.

If you're changing from L1 to L2 on a motorway, a vehicle in your blind spot can change from L3 to a conflicting position in L2 without ever appearing in your mirrors.

If you're pulling away from the side of the road, a vehicle can enter the same road from a driveway or a side turning behind you and on your right without ever appearing in your mirrors.

If you're merging with traffic on your right (motorway slip road for example) the blind spot is typically "supersized" by the angle of your vehicle to the main carriageway. This is a place to take double double extra care.

Remember these are just examples - there are others and it'd be very difficult to provide a comprehensive list. However, after a few hundred thousands of miles of experience, every driver should be carrying a comprehensive list of risk situations in their heads. Until such a time I don't think you can afford to forego an automatic blind spot check.

If one progresses to a higher performance vehicle (and overtaking on single carriageway roads increases) there are a series of specific extra blind spot risks that have to be accounted for. One is pulling out to overtake after a left hand curve. It's possible for a motorcyclist to drive around the outside of the traffic on the bend behind because of his view over the rooves of cars. He may fleetingly appear in your mirrors or he may not. If you pull out to overtake without a blind spot check you might have him off.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I can remember back to when I started to do this. You are right, for the first week, it feels completely unnatural. That's why many people don't do it.

But if keep doing it, one time you may look back, and you will NOT see what you expected to be looking at!!! And you will have been saved a lot of trouble, cost and pain.

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I stole this .sig

I'm with Safespeed and Basingwerk on this (Wow those two reading from the same hymn sheet!) 999 times out of a thousand there will be no one there but that one time

Like an earlier poster I learned it from my early biking days and it has stuck with me. It has saved me on perhaps a dozen occasions in 26 years of motoring / riding. Interesting though that it is not taught by driving instructors (or at least it wasn't taught to my wife 7 years ago) also lorry drivers tend not to either, when they are merging it is all done on mirrors. Which brings me to the only accident I have had in the last 20 years. I was in the overtaking lane on a dual carriageway approaching Stoke. Having almost passed a truck he pulled out and clipped the back of the car. The resultant spin at 60+ was horrifying especially as whilst travelling sideways I looked past my wife in the passenger seat straight at the front of the truck. I truly thought I was going to die. The truck hit us one more time punting us down the armco backwards where we came to rest. We walked away without a scratch and for several reasons. 1. We were in a 240 Volvo estate . 2. It was wet so we slid quite well. 3. There was very little other traffic. I was also very thankful that our three young daughters were not in the car, (and that didn't happen very often.)

Reason he didn't see us...... it was left hand drive, much bigger blind spot. The front of the truck left a dent on the rear wheel arch, so we were almost passed him, being left hand drive there was no way for him to do a life saver. I'm of the belief that it is rare for an accident to be 100% one persons fault but I still struggle to see what I could have done to avoid it.

Max

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Tailgaters - Please Pass
You have an Accident to go to!

It is but I would seriously doubt that any competent motorcyclist I know would consider such a move. Overtake on the outside of traffic on the outside of a left hand bend???
Perhaps that's why so many less experienced motorcyclists get scooped up from fields after being filtered through a dry stone wall.
This is the second piece of bad advice you have given on this thread, you should stop giving it before someone is killed or seriously injured following it.

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It's Champion Man

If you re-read the post you've just quoted, I think you'll see that Paul wasn't actually recommending motorcyclists use this technique, rather he was advising that car drivers might be aware of the possibility of them doing so.

If he said we should watch out for drink drivers at closing time would you say he was advising people to drink drive?

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Actually as an "experienced motorcylist" I would carry out this manouver if the circumstances were right. A biker has a line of visibility that far outways a cars and by positioning for visibility can frequently be able to see well down the road even on the bend. I for one enter left hand bends well to the right as it opens up a magnificent view of the bend and the road ahead.

Given the acceleration of the bike and the fact that cars drivers generally corner at well below the safe speed (taking into account visibilty bend severity and yes speed limit) and have a totally limited view of the road ahead I am normally passed them before they have thought of making an overtaking manouver.

Having said all that I make an assumption that the driver will pull out without looking and even will pull out when they do look. This is the "wait your turn sonny" syndrome. The driver in front has no idea whether it is clear ahead or not but because they see a bike over taking them they assume its ok and as they were in front they think they should go first.

If you dont think its safe please feel free to come pillion with me, we'll switch on the intercom and chat whilst we ride about visibility, positioning and overtaking.

Now, now basingwerk - you have driven in Germany

You should know they come suddenly and from nowhere.

It is why the Germans are so clinical.

You have not seen Wildy drive - so you will just have to take my word for it... very clinical and very precise mirror and blind spot check. She taught me a fair bit actually when we first got together. (Was already IAM and RoSPA too - but that foreign family could outdrive me...)

Having said that .... we do ..er ... um ... er .... do justice to our Jags in Germany.... we teach those naughty Porsche drivers a thing or too......

Admit to being a really sad anorak - I actually evaluate each drive afterwards. I like to be able to remember where I drove and what I saw and learned about latest numpty behaviour and how to defend against it.

I think if you drive applying COAST - you are aware of the speed around you and cars in horizon on routine all mirrors check on clear free-flowing conditions. Bikes are the fly in ointment - but again quick and very very regular checks keep awareness that they are closing in as well.

Certainly a blind spot check on congested roads, slip roads, check for bikers is a life saver and - yes - I consciously do this too

Mike - find a nice quiet empty car park or road and practice the technique until it feels more natural and comfortable. The more you practice this - the more automatic and fluent it becomes.

apart from that I endorse both Paulie (as 90-95% of time) and my "mate" basingwerk!

Arrgh! Agreeing with bw ... Need to lie down - must be ill -- must be my little sortie into PH - where I - er - er - er - upset people er

Heck - I was only supporting my wife! (For those who do not post there - we got into bother over stropping over folks using mobile phones and whether or not some guy was too close following an ambulance - and we are both blinking stubborn at times! )

Hmm! I see a thread .... nah - still "smouldering"....

By 'eck Chumps!

The "Now You See Him" Think! shows this very briefly albeit in urban situation. The whole point of the advert is to make both parties aware of the danger. Some see it as bashing the driver. Oddly - I don't - the advert serves to warn both of dangers of blind spot - though would agree the advert needs expansion.

Read between lines a bit - mate.

Hell, yes. The same applies in cars too.

I was trying to highlight the very specific danger that takes place when the straight arrives and those who have taken less trouble to earn their vision suddenly decide they can see and swoop out to overtake.



Exactly. This illustrates the responsibility that all parties have to avoid conflict. I work very hard to guard against the risk of other drivers not checking their blind spots.

If I'm the guy who has gone all around the outside of a left hand bend, perhaps overtaking a number of cars, I'll hang back and stay out at the end of the bend and wait to see if the next overtaking target is going to swoop out at the start of a straight section.

It's excellent practice to plan EACH overtake as an INDIVIDUAL overtake - rather than assume that a group of vehicles is a single lump to be dispatched as one. Every target is one that might fail to check their mirror (let alone their blind spot) and might pull out on you. That's also a good reason for a modest speed differential.

Some of you who have not been taught to overtake may have noticed that it's somehow easier to overtake a second or a third vehicle rather than the first. That's mainly because having overtaken one, you are now in the best position to decide if it is safe to overtake another. Think backwards, and you might see that you could have been in a very similar position when deciding to overtake the first. Overtaking decisions are best made from the right hand side of the road. (Think about it!).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well I've thought about it for a few seconds and....................what about when the bend it to the right?
Your over simplistic made up rule of thumb doesn't work yet again.
Bend to the right, best place for observation is well behind the vehicle in front and to the left to observe ahead past the nearside of the vehicle in front. Perhaps you missed that on your acme advanced driving course.

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It's Champion Man

Pardon? What rule of thumb? What right hand bend? Are you mad?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

When approaching a right hand bend the best place fo a M/C to be positioned is "hugging the curb". On a right hand bend this is the only place you can improve your visibility and it gives even more of an observation advantage over a car driver as he/she is basically sat in the middle of the road.

This additional observation means that the biker can be much quicker on the overtake as the bend straightens. However I personally believe that only a homocidal/suicidal maniac overtakes on a right hand bend.