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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 13:46 
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from M.E.N. :yikes:

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31 points - and still he's on the road


A SALESMAN has been allowed to carry on driving despite notching up a staggering THIRTY ONE penalty points on his licence.

Jeffrey Englander, 60, accumulated the points after committing a series of motoring offences, including speeding and failing to produce his insurance documents.

Drivers are usually disqualified when once they reach 12 points but Mr Englander is still on the road with nearly three times the limit after pleading “exceptional hardship”.

He successfully argued that a driving ban would put his new business at risk and was given one last chance.

Mr Englander, of Prestwich, told the M.E.N: “I pleaded hardship and had a fantastic magistrate who let me off, I couldn’t believe it.”

Alarmed

Last night, road safety campaigners said they were “alarmed” that he had escaped a driving ban with so many points on his licence and called on the courts to take a harder line on motoring convictions.

Mr Englander, who represented himself at when he appeared before Salford Magistrates’ Court, said: “The magistrate just said: ‘I’ll let you off this time’.

“I think I had spent a night in jail and maybe they felt sorry for me.

“I said I needed my car for my job and he said, on that occasion, they would let me off but if I got one more point I would be banned. “

He added: “I was very apologetic. You have to be very, very humble. The more they can see you are sorry, the more chance you have of getting off.

” I was very humble and also dressed respectfully.”

Loophole

Mr Englander returned to court on a charge of failing to produce insurance papers - but he escaped any more points when Manchester motoring law specialists firm Geoffrey Miller found a legal loophole.

Jeanette Miller, supervising solicitor at the company, said: “Mr Englander came to us with 31 points on his driving licence. I have never seen one a driving licence like it.

“We put forward that this offence should have been dealt with at the same time as the other matters. That did not happen due to an administrative error. He would have received a further eight points, taking him up to 39 points. However, the court accepted our argument.”

Mr Englander said he has now mended his ways.

He said: “I’m not going to push things. I’m just driving very, very carefully now. I don’t need any more problems.”

Shocking

A spokeswoman for Brake, the national road safety charity, said: “Brake is very disappointed to hear that Mr Englander is still allowed to drive with a shocking 31 points on his licence.

“The magistrate’s justification of the ‘exceptional hardship’ Mr Englander would face if he lost his licence would be incomparable to a family’s loss if his continued dangerous driving caused a fatality.

“Legal loopholes must be closed and magistrates must use their full power to in punishing repeat offenders.”

A spokesman for Road Safety charity Roadpeace said: “I’ve never previously come across someone with such a number of points on their licence.

“We are alarmed that the court sees fit to allow this person to continue driving while he appears to have no qualms about flouting driving regulations.”



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:21 
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Exceptional hardship eh? Tough! If you're that bad a driver as go accumulate 31 points then you should be off the road.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:23 
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An excellent advert for that particular firm of solicitors, though :D

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 14:31 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Exceptional hardship eh? Tough! If you're that bad a driver as go accumulate 31 points then you should be off the road.


So we think that you can get three points when driving safely, but to get 31 you have to be a nutter?

The shame of it is that points don't mean anything any more.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 15:53 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
Exceptional hardship eh? Tough! If you're that bad a driver as go accumulate 31 points then you should be off the road.


So we think that you can get three points when driving safely, but to get 31 you have to be a nutter?

The shame of it is that points don't mean anything any more.


Exactly! To say 31 points=nutter is equally as meaningless and simplistic as saying 71MPH=deadly.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 16:10 
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Wasn't there a woman who got caught 11 times on the same road in a couple of days, because she didn't know the limit had been changed from 40 to 30 (the 40 repeaters were simply removed)? If the cases hadn't been thrown out she would have received 33 points.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 16:49 
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There's no mention of the severity of the speeding offences. If they were all 35-40 in a 30, 82mph on the motorway or slight transgressions of the variable speed limits on the M25 & M42, then the Magistrates were bang-on.

This is beacuse the points system heavily discriminates against the high-mileage business driver.

Someone who does 30,000 miles a year and only commits a minor speeding offence every 23,000 miles (a very respectable driving record, by anyone's standards) ends up getting a 6-month ban and loses his job. Mortgage company forecloses, wife leaves, takes the kids and goes on the Social, etc etc etc. Total ruin.

Meanwhile, a low mileage recreational driver routinely exceeds speed limits by a large margin (100mph down 40 roads etc), but only gets caught once in the same period, due to the law of averages and the fact that he only speeds on local roads that he knows well. He gets off with a 3 month ban, tops. His job does not depend on his licence, so he suffers nothing more than a slight inconvenience.

The magistrates recognised this disparity and ruled accordingly. Well done to them.


I don;t rate Mr Englander's chances of getting Insurance with that many points, though.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 18:50 
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Quote:

Jeffrey Englander, 60, accumulated the points after committing a series of motoring offences, including speeding and failing to produce his insurance documents.


Note including....

So how many points did he get for "failing to produce", again note it doesn't say he had no insurance, he simply didn't produce the documents fast enough, or more likely didn't have a good enough solicitor defending him.

How many of his other points were for such, (IMO fairly trivial), offences?

How many for failing to identify?

How many for 34 in a 30?

I don't think you can judge this case at all on the headline figure, you need specifics. Which the courts will have had, and on hearing all the evidence they decided he is not a danger.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 19:58 
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Out of interest, do we know what his accident record is like? Has he caused a KSI recently? :o

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 03:16 
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It's a good job he did'nt decide to hold up a sign saying speed camera ahead, slow down - he'd have lsot his licence immediately, even if the effect of his notice was... to slow traffic down.

Wait a minute, isn't that what cameras are supposed to do? :o

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:43 
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kendalian wrote:
Out of interest, do we know what his accident record is like? Has he caused a KSI recently? :o



Now - isn't that the partnerships job :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 14:16 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
Exceptional hardship eh? Tough! If you're that bad a driver as go accumulate 31 points then you should be off the road.


So we think that you can get three points when driving safely, but to get 31 you have to be a nutter?

The shame of it is that points don't mean anything any more.


My bold

I didn't actually say that now did I Paul?

The way the artical read suggested that he had gained the points over some time and they were not all for speeding offences. The fact that he failed to produce IMO suggests something more sinister - and if you read, he didn't actually get points for failing to produce, he got off on a loophole. The fact that he had to use a loophole to get off suggests to me that he wasn't ABLE to produce.

I do agree with you though Paul in as much as the penalty point system has been completely undermined.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 15:30 
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Brake seem to think he was driving dangerously - I get the impression it was more down to driving without insurance and speeding.

anyone got any idea who would insure someone with 31 points on their license?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 15:40 
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diy wrote:
anyone got any idea who would insure someone with 31 points on their license?


A company with a really huge proposal form? :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 15:53 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
diy wrote:
anyone got any idea who would insure someone with 31 points on their license?


A company with a really huge proposal form? :lol:




Wonder what his excess is - or does he just deposit with treasury :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 18:51 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
The fact that he failed to produce IMO suggests something more sinister


Not to me.

Perhaps his local police station only opens office hours, as many do.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 18:57 
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Homer wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
The fact that he failed to produce IMO suggests something more sinister

Not to me.

Perhaps his local police station only opens office hours, as many do.

The report in today's "Telegraph" suggests the offences were something of a rather technical nature that may well have been blown up out of all proportion.

The failure to disqualify may reflect the magistrates taking a dim view of these particular convictions.

Quote:
Last night, Jeanette Miller, his solicitor, said that she had never come across a motorist with as many points against his name.

She said the case highlighted the fact that motorists were not automatically banned as soon as they reach 12 penalty points. They had the right to go before a court and put forward a case of "exceptional hardship''. Miss Miller said the salesman had stayed below the 12-point level until September, 2003, when he pleaded guilty to "several'' offences.

While none of these was related either to speeding or driving, each was punishable by the imposition of eight points. They concerned insurance and licence matters.

The previous day Mr Englander had been due to be dealt with for an additional offence of failing to produce insurance documents. However, he did not turn up.

It was this offence that led to his latest appearance in court and magistrates accepted that court staff failed to tell him of the hearing so he escaped a further eight points. Miss Miller said: "He had just set up a business and he was going through some emotional difficulties."

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Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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