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Sixy_the_red
 Post subject: Very worrying if true...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 14:45 
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I came across the following on a biker forum and I was wondering if there was any truth to it.

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According to MCN and a few other sources, small plates defeat the new camera network with ANPR systems thats currently being set up right across the UK.
As small plates defeat the ANPR the law is going to be changed to give points for illegal plates as the current £30 fine is considered no deterent.

Ok fair enough, other than not agreeing with the big brother network to log every vehicle journey ever taken anywhere in the UK, I dont have a problem with the number plate thing on the whole, (the network was announced and work started quite some time ago and no one did anything so its going in).

BUT something is wrong with this.

According to all the reports I can find in the media, there will be specialised ANPR pursuit teams across the country, consisting typicaly of a van, 2 cars and 6 bikes.
Any vehicle with a non recognisable plate will flag an alert and in thoery chased down and nicked.

The logistics and the cost of this is huge, but Ive still never got over the fact that when I was burgled it took over four hours for the police to arrive, and then it was a single plod on foot who got a lift and just confirmed to me that the door frame was smashed then fucked off.
And when my van was broken into and the tools I made a living with stolen, no one gave a fuck.

But jesus if I dare to go out with a slightly too small number plate there will be dedicated pursuit teams to hunt me down as an easy target using the camera network...

And people in the polce force try to convince us that the police care about the public and arent for the most part just a cash generating machine for the government.

And the police wonder why they dont have a good reputation...
Discuss.

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mpaton2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 15:08 
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The "According to MCN" made me stop reading. If everything had gone "according to them", bikes would have been banned several times over now.
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Gixxer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 15:37 
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As Mpaton says, MCN are full of shite half the time.

As for there being a "specialised pursuit team" right across the country, we don't have enough unemployed to fill the vacancies that would be generated.

Even if it did come to pass, can you just imagine them trying to stop the local red & white while they are on a run somewhere :lol:

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Gizmo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 16:06 
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Worst case its only a small fine, no points. Usualy just a warning. If you are a persistant offender they can withdraw the number (designed to defeat the personalised number "modifications")

ANPR usualy works from the front because the numbers are in more or less the same place and in the same form. Rear number plates can be anywhere on the vehicle and two rows of characters, much more difficult to read by machine.

One trick could be to do what they do in the US on motorcycles. They use a single row of characters but are smaller. On customs they often turne the plate round through 90 degrees and attached to the swing arm (side mounted). its still viewable from the rear, legaly sized but cannot be read by an ANPR....shame.

Image

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Steve
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 17:42 
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'According to MCN'......... wrote:
According to all the reports I can find in the media, there will be specialised ANPR pursuit teams across the country, consisting typicaly of a van, 2 cars and 6 bikes.

Almost the same is already happening within London’s congestion charge zone. ANPR cameras are mounted on cars and are driven around gathering all the VRMs it can find. This data is uploaded to a database and correlated against those who have subscribed; those who aren’t will be flagged up on the system and face a fine. A slight tweak in this process will allow the creation of the VRM police :roll:

It will be very interesting to see what will be done with owners with dirty plates. ANPR replies on the retro-reflective properties of the VRM, something which will be lacking if an extra diffusion layer (dirt) is added.
Of course, the born law breakers already have a solution – nick another plate!

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Gixxer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 19:14 
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smeggy wrote:
It will be very interesting to see what will be done with owners with dirty plates.

The solution is very simple.....introduce a law that says it will cost you £60 & 3 penalty points if you have more than 24 hours worth of road grime on your plate.

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Ernest Marsh
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 20:12 
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Gixxer wrote:
smeggy wrote:
It will be very interesting to see what will be done with owners with dirty plates.

The solution is very simple.....introduce a law that says it will cost you £60 & 3 penalty points if you have more than 24 hours worth of road grime on your plate.

Volvo will probably put wipers on the VRM plates, and a dashboard warning light! :lol:

Of course if you have trouble with your neighbours, you could simply stick a sweet wrapper on their plate, and they'd end up with a ticket!

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blademansw
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 09:37 
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Yeah, I read this in this weeks MCN.

I would suspect that this is true as they really, really want the national police state surveillance network to be able to monitor you. Heaven forbid they wouldn't be able to track your every move, all in the name of anti-terrorism and anti-crime.

The thing the stupid twats at the helm of this titanic disaster do not seem to realise is that the incidence of cloning will go through the roof. ANPR will not be able to detect that, again it comes back to having traffic police with their famous "sixth sense" to detect dodgy motors.

Also, judging by the governments inability to implement a single IT project anwhere near successfully, on time, and on budget I can see the whole system being a total fiasco as we have come to expect in this country.

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basingwerk
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:05 
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Quote:
BUT something is wrong with this ...
Any vehicle with a non recognisable plate will flag an alert and in thoery chased down and nicked ... when I was burgled it took over four hours for the police to arrive, and then it was a single plod on foot who got a lift and just confirmed to me that the door frame was smashed then fucked off.
And when my van was broken into and the tools I made a living with stolen, no one gave a fuck.


In all likelihood, the people who burgled him and broke into his van and made off with his tools did not travel to his place on the bus.

More likely, they made their way by car, and it is far easier to find out who did it if you have a list of who was in the vicinity at the time, especially if you have another list of known offenders.

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malcolmw
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:26 
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The people who broke into the van probably DID get their by car. Just not their car (or one with false plates etc.) rendering them impossible to trace.

We all know in our hearts that, like ID cards, this is just Government control freakery.

[paranoia mode on]

They are probably monitoring this site right now as we are subversives. If you don't think so then what about the obvious infiltration of that dangerous "terrorist" group Fathers for Justice. Or was it telephone tapping? Not exactly a threat to national security were they - just like us.

[paranoia mode off]

:) :)

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Gixxer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:13 
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There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of paranoia Malcolm, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if you were right about the site being monitored.

I know for fact that I am on the NCIS watchlist, as are half my family & friends.

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semitone
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:25 
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Gixxer wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of paranoia Malcolm, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if you were right about the site being monitored.

I know for fact that I am on the NCIS watchlist, as are half my family & friends.


Just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching me :roll:
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blademansw
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:55 
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Gixxer wrote:
I know for fact that I am on the NCIS watchlist, as are half my family & friends.


Why?

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CarlP
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 13:18 
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blademansw wrote:
Gixxer wrote:
I know for fact that I am on the NCIS watchlist, as are half my family & friends.

Why?

More importantly, how do you know?

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basingwerk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 13:24 
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malcolmw wrote:
The people who broke into the van probably DID get their by car. Just not their car (or one with false plates etc.) rendering them impossible to trace.


ANPR provides the trace as well. With ANPR based database systems, copied plates are easily recognisable by spatial/temporal techniques, i.e. if the same plate crops up in different places at implausible times, one of them is fake. And as you have a traceback to the origin of both cars, as well as tracking of their current journey in real time, finding them is as easy as pie.

Furthermore, if any unexpected plate crops up near the scene (i.e. one not registered, or off the road, or has not tax or MOT or insurance etc. etc.), a trend can be built up quickly on that and the car can be pulled over by the next available patrol. All of that is easy once the infrastructure is in place – that’s why they want to put it in.

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civil engineer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 13:29 
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If we were all electronically tagged then surely that would really help the police to solve more crime.

Sign me up straight away.

if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.
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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 13:42 
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basingwerk wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
The people who broke into the van probably DID get their by car. Just not their car (or one with false plates etc.) rendering them impossible to trace.


ANPR provides the trace as well. With ANPR based database systems, copied plates are easily recognisable by spatial/temporal techniques, i.e. if the same plate crops up in different places at implausible times, one of them is fake. And as you have a traceback to the origin of both cars, as well as tracking of their current journey in real time, finding them is as easy as pie.

Furthermore, if any unexpected plate crops up near the scene (i.e. one not registered, or off the road, or has not tax or MOT or insurance etc. etc.), a trend can be built up quickly on that and the car can be pulled over by the next available patrol. All of that is easy once the infrastructure is in place – that’s why they want to put it in.


I recognise this pattern as an arms race where the losers are:

a) The people who pay for the arms (capital and running)
b) The people who are incorrectly identified by the system (misreads, database errors, circumstantial coincidence)
c) Stupid petty criminals who fail to adapt to the new environment
d) Those of us who value privacy
e) Those of us who suffer through opportunity cost (poor police response to burglary for example, because they are too busy playing with their toys)

I can also think of LOADS of ways in which the system can be defeated or circumvented, ALL of which will become commonplace - to the point of making the system worse than useless.

For example, we have 3 million vehicles that have no known registered keeper because they are 'in the trade'. What's the betting that there'll be an extra million on that list within 2 years?

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basingwerk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 14:07 
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civil engineer wrote:
If we were all electronically tagged then surely that would really help the police to solve more crime.

Sign me up straight away.

if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.


It’s a totalitarian dream to get rid of crime, but some wrong-doing is essential in a human society. It is often ‘entrepreneurialism’ by other means.

Anyway, without any wrong-doing, there would be no “Crime Scene Investigation” shows, for example, and think how bland the newspapers would be. The sports and motor sections (which I only use for cleaning my shoes) would fill all the pages! That would be awful, so although I despise petty criminals, and not-petty criminals, they are part of the culture. The best we can do is raise the stakes for the wrong-doers, perhaps using technology to do that.

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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 14:15 
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basingwerk wrote:
Anyway, without any wrong-doing, there would be no “Crime Scene Investigation” shows, for example, and think how bland the newspapers would be. The sports and motor sections (which I only use for cleaning my shoes) would fill all the pages! That would be awful, so although I despise petty criminals, and not-petty criminals, they are part of the culture. The best we can do is raise the stakes for the wrong-doers, perhaps using technology to do that.


Actually, the best we can do is build a strong inclusive society with strong moral values where relatively few individuals feel a need to cheat the system (or others).

The way things are going, more and more people feel the need to cheat the system. It's the opposite direction from the right direction.

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botach
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 14:33 
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[quote="SafeSpeed
Actually, the best we can do is build a strong inclusive society with strong moral values where relatively few individuals feel a need to cheat the system (or others).

.[/quote]

What you mean ,Paul is revert to the standards we used to have before the PC brigade got going - where the youth got respect for everything (and the law) at an early age, including a threat of a clip round the ear from the local beat officer, knowing that at home we'd get a lot more for mentioning it.

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