Safe Speed Forums

Probably an answer in the Highway Code or somewhere equally obvious, but thought I'd post here...

First a background summary...

Road on way to work, A road with nice clear visibility, no junctions etc...Perfectly safe for 60-70.

Recently re-surfaced with a load of 20MPH and chippings signs all over the place. Not wanting to skid on loose chippings / dent or chip my own or others' paint and windscreen etc... stuck pretty close to this in the first few days (only a 3/4 mile stretch or so) as did most others. No problems with this.

Being an A road, they get bedded in quite quickly even in the middle and within a week it's safe to pick up speed, although be careful still as the odd stray patch remains in the usual places. Of course there's the odd few that stick to 20mph and frustrate other users into doing things they shouldn't.

Now, 3-4 weeks after the work there's lines down the middle and at the edges and everything's bedded in. No problems. Except that the 20mph limit signs are up, some people still sticking close to them (unbelievable) on a busy stretch.

Question is...are those of us travelling at NSL on this stretch with the signs still up technically breaking the limit by 3 times and could we be in trouble for it? I know there's the law about temporary limits not being enforcable by points unless on a DC (I think?) but where do we stand on this?

Probably a dead simple answer...it's just I don't know it...yet.

What do the signs look like? Unless they're like this then they're only advisory.

They're the ones with the loose chippings signs at the top and a 20 mph limit part attached to the bottom. All-in-one jobs rather than separate signs. So if they are advisory, then the people that choose to stick to them when the conditions are clearly more suited to NSL speeds are driving without due care and attention. Or failing to maintain the flow of traffic. Or some offence!?

It's frustrating, and follows on from what some people have been saying about "red herring" Motorway signs. They'll stay there for months rather than being collected up, just like some recent temporary roadwork signs tied up on a local B-road that stayed there until they faded to light orange. Pointless, and dangerous as people who believed them (as we are taught to do) slowed down for non-existent hazards on an otherwise safely-fast road.

From what I remember of them, the speed limit part is probably too small to be enforcable.

As for the people who are still driving at 20mph after a few weeks, it could be their first time driving on that road and they don't know it's been 3-4 weeks since it was laid down, how do they know it wasn't completed earlier the same day?

_________________
Andrew.

If they're anything like the signs our surface dressing contractors use, they just have an advisory speed limit underneath the loose chippings on a plasticky cardboard sheet. This sounds like a similar thing to what the OP is describing. They usually take ages to take them down too!

I'm hoping that "recently" means a good number of months ago?

They should be able to tell from these facts:

a) There's no loose chippings around anymore
b) There's full road markings back on the road and everyone else is going (or trying to go) 3 times faster than them.

It's a busy road and the work was done well so there wasn't that many loose chips even on day one.

No real point to the thread now that it seems to be considered to be advisory, but isn't it annoying when people hold up the traffic for no reason?

How I hate top dressing type road "repairs". Stone damage to the car, tar on the bodywork...

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

AIUI The only symbol/sign that can be on the same 'backing board' as the 30 sign described above is the dreaded scamera symbol.
Check The 'Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002' (S.I.3113).
I it isn't 'Prescribed' it cannot be enforced.
All the above is to the best of my knowledge, and I am prepared to be corrected.
fatboytim

Strangely I went a different way home and I saw one of these loose chippings signs on the way back from work.
The bottom had "20 MPH" written on it in letters so no, not enforcable.

Re. backing boards, I believe the backing board for a sign (which can be yellow or grey but must be rectangluar not circular like in Leicester) can contain as many different signs of any type as you want. However the backing board must not have it's own border (like the ones at the start of the Wessex Way 50 zone) as this border makes the entire thing one sign, which would have to be a prescribed sign.

The is one sign in it's self as it has a border and it is the only type of 30MPH repeater sign allowed in a 30 zone where there are street lamps. (stupid laws)

_________________
Andrew.

Thinking about it, the sign said "20 MPH".
That was it.
No indication that that is the maximum speed allowed/recomended.

Maybe it is to warn drivers that the loose chippings are themselves travelling at 20MPH?

_________________
Andrew.

You would think that logic would tell you whether or not the road is in a fit state to resume normal speed......but there have been at least two fatalities on the B roads where I live a few days after the chippings went down. And yes, 17/18yr old in a Nova/Corsa, at a sharp corner/dip, hitting wall/tree at high speed....the flowers get replaced every so often. Prime examples of NOT legally speeding, but using highly inappropriate speed.

Personally I find it more annoying and much more dangerous when the signs go up 2 weeks BEFORE the work commences - you travel the road daily for those 2 weeks expencing to see the new surface and driving accordingly then on the first day of week 3 when you are no longer expecting the chippings, there they are! Talk about crying wolf...

I don't really find it to be a problem in a car after a day of so of reasonable traffic, but on a bike those loose chippings are lethal. I was unfortunate enough about 18 months ago to be travelling on an A road the day after the work and even maintaining 20mph was almost impossible. Even 2 weeks after the work when the chippings are bedded in in two 'tram lines' there are still enough loose chipsings on the surface to cause a serious problem along the line a bike would take.

I'd far rather have to deal with a week or so of lane restrictions while they do a proper job than have to deal with those chippings for a month....

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Loose chippings are probably the cause of many KSIs. I remember cycling along a road with loose chippings, and when I applied my brakes I lost control, because it was like cycling in gravel. Hampshire County Council love loose chippings. It takes years of campaigning by MPs, councillors and residents to get the council to properly resurface the most patched up and rutted roads (a.k.a part of Twyford Road in Eastleigh).

I have only one good thing to say about this sort of cheapskate way of resurfacing a road.
Come winter in an area where gritting is not usually performed , Asphalt seems to retain a layer of dew , which freezes usually with no determinal pattern .The dew seems to sink below the chippings and freeze , the rough top surface of the stone seems to offer better grip, and although there is certainly a need to exercise caution on this type of surface , i have never had any major panics on this type of surface even when the temperature was below freezing.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on