Safe Speed Forums

Following on from the interesting discussion concerning road worker safety developing in thread: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5541

I have a concern and a proposal. For motorway traffic management operations, we're all used to seeing the 'buffer' trucks with massive bright keep left / right arrows and plenty of flashing amber lights.

I think these trucks are all wrong. The signs don't need to be so large, and they give out the wrong message. They ask for compliance, when they really should ask for caution. I suggest what we really need are "caution - workers in road" signs mounted on the back of the trucks. these signs should only be activated when there ARE men in the road.

Ultimately we need to build responsible driver behaviour based on accurate information.

'Compliance' messages do just the opposite - once compliance has been given no further duty remains.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yes - agree - would also be nice if the motorway gantry signs also did the same - i regularly drive late at night on motorways and most of these now are crying "wolf"with drivers ignoring these simply because a lot of the time there's no hazard.
Similarly "Police caution/accident" or "Men at work" - how often do we see these left at the side of the road or cones not removed when no need for them.
The system must work on trust - drivers need to know that these signs have not been left on/forgotten and the information is accurate
When this happens , most drivers will take heed.The minority of thumb in b** will not --thats where the problem comes in.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

There is not a lot worse on a motorway to be warned of impending roadworks or speed restrictions only to find them non-existant further on. I feel such a fool when I slow down to the suggested limit and every body else flashes past. Now I tend to slow down, but not all the way and be aware that there might be a problem up ahead.

_________________
Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

Thats the approach i now take - once had a mate who used to get out of his car and knock over "Men at work " signs left at the side of the road When it was obvious that they were bogus.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

And that’s all it should take. And after finding the impending roadworks or speed restrictions where none existent, you find they have put speed cameras there, just to antagonise the motorist even more.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

I have just posted a picture in the previous thread.
In the context where they are used , there is no problem in France - the signs are clearly visible BEFORE you get near them, allowing adequate time to react, and more importantly, the drivers do seem to prepare to slow, and merge.
However, you get better lane discipline on motorways generally, so merging is less fraught.

The trucks are always manned and only there if work is in progress.
I dont ever recall seeing warnings for non-existant roadworks in France.
Not here though.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I don't think I've ever seen a "buffer truck" in use without activities going on, whenever I've seen them it's when they don't have proper coning or signs in place for whatever reason (laying them out or temporary works), and if the truck wasn't there you wouldn't know to move across.

Gareth

The interlocked red and white plastic barriers in the photo are usually half filled with water this will take out a fair degree of energy when the worst happens, but when hit will still be propelled into the works area.
Concrete barriers of a similar design are available, they take out more energy by causing more damage to the car and hence possibly injury to the occupants.
The main advantage of these barriers over cones is psychological they make drivers feel more enclosed (for want of a better word) than cones, and it seems it to make drivers more cautious.
The disadvantage is the time it takes to place them, unloading off a hi-ab wagon (1/4ton af concrete swinging close to live traffic), and having workers to position the interlocks again often close to live traffic.
AIUI Constrution is the most dangerous land based industry, roadworking being the most dangerous construction, and traffic management the most dangerous roadwork.
Thankfully most of my work now is laying estate roads and car parks, though I am still on a County Councils approved highway contractors list.

fatboytim

I don't recall ever seeing a buffer truck without work being carried out. They do need to be big and bright though because they are usually used at temporary mobile works such as verge maintenance. I can't find any links to the story but a few years back a worker were killed on the A14 in Suffolk when a lorry drove into the back of of of these buffer trucks.

I agree they need to be big and bright. But they could also deliver the critical information - caution: workers in road. I bet if we asked 100 drivers from the wider population 80 wouldn't recognise 'buffer truck' and 90 wouldn't associate the sign on the back with 'workers in road'.

Do 'buffer trucks' have another name? I admit to making up the 'buffer truck' description myself (as far as I know).

But I believe the crucial issue in the 'information / compliance' one outlined in the first post.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Paul I think buffer truck describes them perfectly (I don't know the technical description as, I've never worked with one).

Just found an article for the members perusal, remember the figures are for ONLY Highways Agency roads (Motorways and trunk roads)., and DON'T INCLUDE Local Authority roads( basically all other public roads).

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.as ... wsAreaID=2

Sorry don't know if this will be a direct link or whether you'll have to copy and paste. Like wise HA's Safety at roadworks below,

http://www.highways.gov.uk/knowledge/1856.aspx

Somewhre in the above it says;
11 roadworkers were killed in roadworks on motorways or trunk roads in England between October 2000 and February 2002. This equates to a 1 in 1000. (Source: HSE 2002)

Remember this does not include local authority roads, (where I hope the ffigures aren't so high)

fatboytim

That was a direct response to a series of Safe Speed PRs, culminating in this one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/80

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Paul,
I totally agree cameras don't make roadworks safer, or very few if any, other places, i have actually witnessed a crash were a car slammed on from approx 70mph to 50 on a NSL DC when he saw the camera and lines (probably doesn't know his highway code speed limits), and was rear-ended by the car behind.
Yes maybe the driver behind should have been more attentive/ left a bigger gap OR maybe he was looking at his speedo (as he knew the camera was ahead) the moment the car in front braked.
I believe the camera caused this accident as the driver in front (hopefully) considered the speed he was travelling before the camera appropriate, he sees the camera and panics, slams on and hey presto! a statistic.
Had he been properly educated in signs and speed limits, this accident wouldn't have happened.
Likewise if there had not been a camera at all, there would have been no accident.
If the above scenario happens withih roadworks there is a good chance of someone breaching the cones swerving to aviod a smash or just skidding thru them.

This road now has a posted limit of 60mph.



This is the very road where a biker friend of mine after being stopped for a 'friendly chat' by a bike cop, had his bikes top speed 100+ 'calibrated ' by the bike cop riding next to him. That was 20 years ago when we had proper road policing, and cops explained our errors ( and consequences) when we were stopped.

FBT, are the plastic barriers not supposed to be fully filled with water?
The inertia would be higher, and the lifting/dropping off problem is alleviated by the adding of the weight once in place. I've not seen them being filled, but presumably it is via tanker. On removal in France, they simply drag them to the side gully and remove the plug and drain the water away.

I know the statistics regarding deaths of road workers are regretable, but situations I have seen with my own eyes (admittedly 8 years ago) lead me to suspect one or two workers got careless. Presumably like most workplaces, the HSA have had a hand in improving things. However they DONT tackle the other half of the equation - the motorist!
Would you favour better information for drivers via TV and inclusions with excise license renewals, or a stricter training and testing regime?

Surely "duty of care" should allow you to excersise more influence on this subject? How do you campaign for this - appeals to the HSA, or the Goverment?
I find the latter less interested UNLESS somebody is killed, while the former DO work to anticipate a problem - occasionally to ridiculous lengths!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Paul, maybe I'm being dim, but surely the "Bumper" trucks dont need to say why you should exit the lane, their very existance (in my picture at least) says there is something going on which you need to avoid, and trying to give a full explanation might just lead to a motorist reading the detail instead of checking it's OK to filter into the next lane? This would be even more critical at busy times, because vehicles in front would be merging themselves, and you would'nt want to rearend one while reading there were workmen in the lane.
There IS a hazard, either SLOW down, or be PREPARED to slow down. QED

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Ernest,
Water in the barriers.. I beleive they are actually not filled as this allows more deformation before bursting, and stops them blowing over in the wind or the pressure then vacuum of an artic passing.
Basically I wouldn't describe them as a 'safety' barrier more a glorified cone, but the psychological effect appears much better than cones.
I've only worked with plastic barriers once and they were already in place when I started on site.
If anyone knows more about them I'm always prepared to educated.

Ernest thank you for actually giving thought to my posts and raising your issues with roadworks as an 'everyday' driver (SS, C.Eng, Saf.Exp and B'wood having specialist or industry knowledge) I do appreciate your position (I drive too) and hope you now have an insight as to my position.

fatboytim

I'll pop this up in case nobody knows what we are talking about!

This is on the road between Caen and Averanches - cannot remember the name, but its a very popular route.
From what I remember of an advert on French TV, the interlocking stops these from being blown over, and also helps soak up momentum in an impact - they act like a springy rope.
In my picture, the ones on the right are emptying into the gutter, prior to removal, as the works were over on the carriageway.
On another point, can you see the thin line down the middle of the dotted line which divides lanes 1 & 2?
All lining has this on the roads I have seen, and as soon as any line looks to be wearing thin, a lorry equiped with a special laser reader, drives slowly up the road, following that line (which is yellow in colour) and a computer reads the line AND the interval where appropriate, and steers the machine/lorry which repaints the lines!
Poorly maintained lines in France are a rarity.
Despite all this technology and expenditure, I still cannot believe that you can stand at the urinals in the gents at this service area, and look straight across into the ladies, and see them washing their hands! There are NO doors, and never have been!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Mobile roadworks like this won't be left on the carriageway, they *usually* have people working when they're out. I can't for the life of me remember the correct name for the crash cushion vehicles, had a hard day.

And on dual carriageways and motorways there should be similar truck mounted sign(s) downstream of the crash cushion with a road works ahead signa nd then wicket type lane closure signs.

I'll have a look at Chapter 8 tomorrow and see if I can't get a name for the barrier vehicles.

They are called Crash Cushion trailers, or vehicles (depending on the type).
According to this picture, they are due to get mor sophisticated....


The full text is available here- and they can be fitted with speed detection equipment for use as VAS!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I'll have ten please