Safe Speed Forums

Ernest
As i state in my latter post, My preference is for HIGH VISIBILITY POLICE presence as this is a definate deterent,
I don't want people fined for going to work etc

"especially when they are all safely tucked up in bed at nights" again my latter post deals with this The Traffic Management crews work 24hrs to maintain the cones, signs etc.. as routine or on request from the police if they are informed of a cone in the carriageway, again I'd ask how do I slow traffic while they do 10 mins at position A, then 20mins position B, 5 mins position C, back to A 2mins etc.. tell me how and I'll put practical ideas forward, or if the cones are hit after 4pm we could just close the road 'til we come back to work at 8am.

I take it your guillotine complies with health and safety regulations i.e it has lock outs to ensure it cannot operate without substantial gaurds locked in place, I've got a couple of plastic cones.
Try this remove the guards and ask a fellow worker to put their hand within an inch of the blade and carry on talking to customers, answering the phone etc while its operating, feel so secure about their safety now?
remeber the only risk is losing a hand.
Does your press/ guillotine move around the room at 60mph followed by another and another I think not.
"As long as I thought sufficient safeguards were in place, then a truck at three metres would hold no fear for me" maybe not but would you as an employer be so happy about your 16yr old office boy/girl being there with two cones for protection.
For your information the hydraulic cutters on site can cut thru 50mm stainless steel reinforcement bars, but thats low on my list of safety concerns, which are in order
1 PUBLIC SAFETY
2 WORKFORCE SAFETY
3 MY SAFETY


Those members who have changed an offside tyre on the hard shoulder of a motorway at night may have more sympathy for my position.

fatboytim

My point about the guillotine was the perception of the experienced user, and the casual observer - the latter not appreciating the safety which is in place, but noticing only the apparent danger because of the noise.

I would prefer if drivers were better trained than merely rely on cones.
I have seen too many scattered to have any faith in them!
Unfortunately, the government seems hell bent on trying to rely on cameras, yellow lines, flashing signs in VSL areas, and less and less on instilling common sense in drivers.
If the danger posed by the trucks passing 3 metres away was too great, and no measures were in place to prevent an accident, I doubt you would be on site. But dont you think if drivers uderstood your position better, they would be more considerate?

My driving behaviour was influenced by public information films on TV - repeated often enough, and with real skills to learn - not just slick warnings about what happens when you have no skills, and are confronted with a situation such as a pedestrian staggering off the kerb in front of you. TV is a powerful tool, but as a road safety tool, it is so underused.
Why spend money when a "safety camera" can earn some, and the PUBLIC think they are doing a great job.?
You obviously know differently, since you prefer a proper police presence!

Whilst I slow down for horses etc. I appreciate that there are many who do not - but what are they doing about it?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Ernest, You hit the nail TDC
Perception exactly!
Only I would put forward that opposite to your situation, my experienced workers know the job can be deadly at any second without any fault on their part, your workers know how safe it is if they follow proceedure.
The public think your machine is dangerous, drivers percieve roadworks as safe.
Not much will stop a 44t wagon on loose road plannings
Have we found the problem perceived risk, to actual risk.

I also know that if i mix crossplys and radials on my austin 1100 I'll end up upside down by a phone box.
24hr tv killed the P.I.F

fatboytim

Duty of Care requirement means as an employer, it is not just satisfactory that I train my employees and advise them of the risk - I have then to follow up and ensure they protect themselves and the public.

While you might carry out similar practices yourself, nobody is INSTRUCTING drivers as to how they should "behave", they merely wish to punish transgressors by post a week later!

I'll give you a toot on the horn when I pass by next!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I would put forward that the roadworker signs, temp speed limit signs, were INSTRUCTING drivers, to go slow thru roadworks, I know its not proper education.
Highways works have changed dramatically in the last 20years From 2 cones and a donkey jacket, to designed and managed Traffic Management and hi-viz goretex, The government wouldn't have stood these costs other than in response to fatality issues.


Safety Engineer I will pm you but every time I post I get logged out and can't log back on without a full reboot

fatboytim you can e-mail me at brettdaysp at btinternet dot com if that works.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Exactly what it says on the tin.

I whole heartedly agree with speed limits for site traffic through the works, you can't tear through a construction site because there are men and plant moving all over the place who may not see you, the situation is changing miniute by minute etc effectively you're driving through the equivalent of a shopping mall.

of course the fundamental plank of site safety is to separate the men from the plant/vehicles wherever possible.

I apologise I didn't notice that you supervise TM ops. I agree that TM ops are required to dash across the live carriageway and that reduced speed is necessary due to the possible interaction.

You're not going to enforce this by camera though...at least I hope not. This is where proper policing comes into play...to my mind they are not really pulling their weight when it comes to the policing and supervision of the setting out of TM on motorways/DC's.

I don't understand the truck in the office comment.

I guess you're in a fairly senior position (you're CDM discussion with safety eng. is quite deep).

your para's 2,3&4 agreed.

Enforcement! the problem is all I can enforce (as the top man on site) is site rules for my workers.
If I feel there is a VERY SERIOUS problem Endangering my workers,AND other road users, caused by drivers and I ask plod to attend to discuss the problem ( red light runners, or VERY excessive speed), drivers see plods car and comply with the restrictions, I look a prat, plod thinks I'm wasting his time.
If there's a K or SI accident plod arrives by the dozen and closes the road for hours.

Permanent cctv on site permanently recording may actually be a reasonable solution, if I or we (inc. workers) considered a drivers actions very dangerous we could ask plod to revue the tape. We do not spend all day looking for these drivers we actually do do some work (contrary to some posters impressions).

My main problem is that I have a massive responsibility but no authority, perhaps if SENIOR works supervisors were sworn in and had similar powers to Traffic Wardens or Highways Agency Officers, the speed cameras would not be needed, as, I could form opinion witnessed by my worker/s if a drivers actions are dangerous, and institute proceedings, fixed penalty. I don't want to be a policeman nor do my workers but it might just work, I reckon my threshold for action would be far higher than by-the-book plod.

The trucks driving through the office, was to try make average joe poster think about what I and my workers do, asking them to imagine trucks driving thru their workplace at 60mph 10ft or less away, similarly my remarks about changing an offside wheel on the hard shoulder (if they've done that they may appreciate, how dangerous it is).

The fact the surface is being replaced means it is worn out, and the lane live traffic is on may be the last lane to be re surfaced, thus drivers may be speeding on defective surface, without realising it.

I think the motoring public have lost all faith in speed enforcement, and posted limits, due to the number that are placed inappropriately, however, roadworks undeniably create safety issues, not all speed related. The reason I believe the variable limit on the M25 exists is that at 40mph cars can travel closer (2 sec rule), and thus more vehicles can pass a given point in a given time, this helps if lanes are closed and traffic volume on the road remains the same.

thanks for your comments, I notice there have been few responses from the knee jerk reactors at the start of this post. Maybe I'm talking some sense.

fatboytim

With all due respect (and I do mean that respect is due), fatboytim, this sort of argument is dangerous crap.

The office envirponment is not designed or adapted for high speed traffic. The people are not trained or equipped to work in such an environment.

We have to base road safety interventions on realistic arguments and analysis not meaningless appeals to emotions.

And we have to build on strengths - we have to determine what works and do more of that.

I've just emailled some onformation to you that may be of interest.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

fatboytim:

Yes I think you are talking sense. It is difficult and dangerouse enough working on a site without having the added fear of thoughtless drivers hurtling past within a few feet.

I find it terribly frustrating to be at the head of a long queue of traffic going through roadworks because I am sticking to the posted limit but I grit my teeth and persevere.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

The 'currency' of debate here isn't sympathy or appeal to emotion. It's real practical road safety methods and interventions that actually work.

If you want changes or improvements, or if you know things from experience that aren't well known, then PLEASE let's hear about those rather than the empty 'appeal to emotion' approach.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

How long has it been worn out? Drivers have been "speeding" on it for how long before it was decided to do the repairs, so a few more weeks/months won’t really make much difference. I drive up and down the motorways every week and have done for the last 3 years. I see roads that are worn out, and have been for years, yet we motorist are expected to drive on them at normal speeds. Unless there are roadworks, they don’t put signs up on motorways saying worn out surface reduce speed do they?

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Most people here agree that reduced speeds around schools are advisable. Isn't a set of roadworks similar to a school in that there is a mixture of slow moving vehicles and pedestians? They might be seperated by a few cones but that is not a lot of protection.

What speed would you expect of motorists if school children walked home in the middle of the road between some cones?

I know I am exaggerating for effect but a moving vehicle shifts a lot of air and can be quite frightening if you are trying to work close by.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

I don't think anyone's denying that reduced speeds past roadworks are desirable in many circumstances.

But the lower limits should not be applied well beyond the actual area of the roadworks and then enforced by a Talivan.

We are also seeing many roadworks limits being made lower than they used to be - do so many motorway roadworks really need to be 40s rather than 50s?

It also doesn't follow that fixed cameras or Talivans are necessarily the most appropriate way to enforce roadworks limits - there was a TRL report recently that said fixed cameras actually increased crashes in roadworks.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Peter wrote:

Isn't there a risk that 40 means 50 to some motorists? The times I see people sticking to the speed limit through roadworks is when there is a threat of a camera.

Please don't get me wrong I am not in favour of cameras anywhere but how do you get people to slow down enough through roadworks?

I agree there are sometimes long stretches with apparently nothing going on but who's to say that tomorrow will be the same?

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

Crucial differences include:

* roadworkers choose to accept the risks
* roadworkers must be be relied upon to take reasonable care
* a big part of the roadworkers job and training is safety

I'd suggest that these differences are considerably greater than the similarities.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

This is where the authorities have a real duty not to 'cry wolf'. We (national we) have to get far better at giving accurate information.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

OK 'sympathy' might have been the wrong word, 'understanding' may have been better.
Truck in the office..
Changing wheel..
All I was trying to do was ask people to put themselves in my shoes for a moment, I'm sorry if you think, asking someone to look at the issue from other guys position/perspective is "crap".
The best road safety solution is to close the road completly while the works are carried out (to me in my position this is the PERFECT answer), however, this would cause problems for the public, (and probably gridlock), so I was hoping this discussion may bring to light the right balance.

Your right offices aren't designed for trucks, but high speed carriageways aren't designed for humans.

Brookwood, hey! just follow the pack don't worry about us we just work there.

Dixie I havn't got a clue, someone from somewhere inspected it and decided it needed work, I just get sent to fix it. I havn't worked on motorways so don't know, obviously as you are an observant and experienced driver and notice that the road is worn out, you adjust your speed accordingly, in those cirmcumstances no one is expected to travel at "normal speeds", I understood this site was about APPROPRIATE speed not high speed, or "normal speed".

fatboytim
sorry this reply has taken so long but the f'ing software keeps logging me out, and I have reboot

SafeSpeed wrote:

Roadworkers choose to accept the risk but have a reasonable expectation that motorist will appreciate that they are at risk and take precautions not to increase those risks.

Roadworkers mostly can be relied on to take reasonable care as should motorists. But motorists are on the road and their entire concentration should be on their driving. The roadworker has his/her job to do while also remembering not to get into conflict with passing traffic.

Safety training is also part of schooling isn't it?

I can see this thread seperating into those in the construction industry and those not.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

Now - some road works are using the "escort" system - lights red - quad bike with yellow light escorts traffic through - turns round sets lights green and escorts back --all done at 20 ---great idea - but ok for short works - good as workers are protected from excess speed.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on