Safe Speed Forums

There's athread on PH which reveals some intersting local views on this...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 6&f=10&h=0

Given that, on average, most drivers adjust their speed to that which is safe for the conditions and hazards presented, does this indicate that 30mph was an inappropriately low speed limit?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

ABSOLUTELY.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

400 drivers clocked in 4 hours by a mobile unit is an incredible number, especially considering that the operator will have had to form a prior opinion of each and every vehicle suspected of exceeding the limit, BEFORE confirming this with the camera.....
I have to wonder whether this is physically feasible to do according to the ACPO guidelines.

or perhaps they just set the video to continuously record across the lanes??? surely not???

As the justification for the exercise was because workers in the "major roadworks" were worried about the speed of vehicles, wouldn't a large VAS telling them to "SLOW DOWN" be a better contribution to safety than 400-odd NIPs dropping through letter boxes in two weeks time?

Not as profitable though..

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

Read the description on PH about the limit being started a mile before the works and the talivan being spotted just inside this -Question - iif there was a queue( as reported there is on occasions) and someone passed the Van in excess and slammed into the rear of the queue( or didn't see the queue because of speedo watching, having seen the van) --exactly how would the van have contributed to safety.

Wouldn't some form of advance warning be a lot safer ---but hey - no cash in it is there

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Interestingly, the 381 drivers spotted will not have received their NIP's yet, and so ever since they were filmed on monday and tuesday, will have still been driving through road works in excess of the posted limit.

That must be VERY re-assuring to the workmen!!

Now for £5,715 an hour, I am sure the police could afford to have the Chief Constable himself stood there waving down offenders, and issuing the tickets, along with a decent lecture about what they were doing wrong!
The trouble is, that sort of hi-vis policing, tends to slow people down and reduce the revenue stream
Maybe they could get that pensioner chappy who was banned for holding up a warning sign to do it for free!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

As a supervisor of highway works on A roads, nsl roads, and dual carriageways (thankfully not on motorways), I must say I have little sympathy for those caught speeding in roadworks.
It is an increadably difficult job to balance between keeping traffic flowing and the saftey of my workforce/co-workers/freinds.
We can if necessary take convoys thru the works, but do you want to crawl at 15mph behind a transit pick-up with beacons?
It's not just workers getting hit by cars, I have seen a 'Bigfoot road cone' (the biggest), flicked like a tiddly wink over 15m by an artics rear tyre clipping the base, now that did frighten me.

For me to call in the police to enforce the limit, I would have to be most seriously concerned for the LIVES of 'my lads', If there had been a near miss or two, and a worker was later injured and I hadn't asked for police enforcement I would be liable under Health & Safety for not taking reasonable steps to protect my workers. I don't fancy going to a funeral and then jail.

Please think about this
44tonne wagons constantly passing within 3mtrs (10ft) of your desk, workstation, etc at 60 mph.

You ask your office junior, secretary, apprentice to photocopy, make the coffee, answer that phone SCREECH BANG AND THEY'RE DEAD right there in your office.
I'm not a fan of cameras, and am actively involved in litigation regarding an unenforceable site, that may cause a refund.
I've a 4.0l 250hp car and love to drive it. (it also helps get up to speed quickly on leaving the works exit into A road traffic)

I apologise if this sounds like a rant but it is a serious road saftey issue,
I want to go to work repair/replace the roads we all use and wear out, have the craic with the lads, do my paperwork, and see everyone get home safely, the public, my workers, and myself.

fatboytim

It'd be a good start if road works speed limits were set and enforced at times and places where workers were present - and not at other times.

We've got to build respect - both ways. At present the authorities are taking the piss far too often. They are undermining the whole system.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Interesting debate to enter here.

I'm not convinced that limits actually make roadworks safer, although I can see that the workers perceive them to be safer.

My son had half the base of one of these come through his (laminated) windscreen on tha A1(M) last year. It caught him on the chin. Luckily he was wearing wraparound sunglasses or the shower of tiny glass fragments might have gone in his eyes.
I think this is one of the reasons he has taken an office job and rides a bike to work instead of driving a company car up and down the motorways.

Of course they do in most cases. The hazard density in the vicinity of road works is clearly much higher than if the roadworks were not there. This is especially true of motorway road works.

The thing that makes motorways our safest roads is the absence of slow moving road users like pedestrians and cyclists. It is the speed DIFFERENTIAL that is dangerous.

So, putting pedestrians (road workers) on a motorway or fast trunk road will bring its hazard density up to a higher level, comparable with a city street or residential road. So the appropriate speed is reduced to much the same level as those sorts of roads. Speed limits in road works reflect this.

I commented last week about the situation in new roadworks on the M1, where the speed limit had been posted, but not workers were in evidence, the lanes hadn't been marrowed or the SPECS cameras installed. This resulted in some drivers slowing down and others not doing so, leading to a large disparity in speeds and increased danger.

The same would apply, I suspect, if we did not have speed limits in main road roadworks. Some would drive to the limit, others would choose an appropriate speed that, in view of the presence of the workers, could be much less than the limit. Again we have the disparity in speeds and increased danger. Imposing reduced speed limits ensures that the unthinking drivers who "stick to the limits" would be driving at a more appropriate speed.

Unfortunatley due to liability issue the works have to be designed to the lowest denominator i.e grandma in a micro car, There are legal requirements Chptr 8, red book etc

Hey! my workers are only human and can make mistakes, and the slower you're going the more time they have to react and get out of the way.

I would argue that difference in speed is crucial to this discussion, do you want to be travelling substantially faster than the 25tonne tipper, JCB, road roller pulling out of roadworks right in front of you, the mistake may be the workers, but the victim may be you.

I firmly believe the safety of my workforce would be much better served by the highest visibility policing possible, then if people don't see the signs and dont see the police, they aren't paying attention.
On the odd time I've had plod in my roadworks, the increase in compliance with the restrictions by motorists very noticeable.

I notice there are no comments about the you're office, workstation..etc.

As to varying speeds out of work hours, you may be suprised to learn that the traffic management (tm) is checked regularly, occasionally constantly by a circling team, replacing cones knocked out of place, checking signs, etc.. how do I reduce the speed limit for the 10 mins it takes for them to sort a problem.
These tm workers risk their lives running into live traffic lanes to retreive cones etc... so you can get home safely and for only £7.00 per hour.
AIUI tm working is the most dangerous land based job, i.e higher fatality rates than miners, demolition workers, scaffolders.

Fatboytim

Fatboytim makes some very valid points. No sane driver would want to pelt though a pedestrianised street at much more than 30mph, why must road workers have it any different?

However, there are mitigating factors. Take the two motorways I use to get to work daily as examples.
* The M3 had roadworks with an enforced temporary 50 limit. The workers were separated from the traffic by bloody great concrete barriers; those probably give more protection to the workers than we get in our cars! (I grant that you probably can’t have these things where needed in town).
* The length of the M275 is reduced to 50mph and 60mph on the 1st Dec 05. My MP told me it was due to roadworks. To this day there have only been a few cones on a very short stretch on the northbound hard shoulder at the end of the motorway and I have never seen a worker on it. Now this takes the urine.

Given that these unnecessary measures are commonplace, is it any wonder that drivers don’t treat many of these temporary limits with the respect they demand? (demand is not the same as deserve)

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

But road workers shouldn't be in the live carriageway.

the only workers permitted to do this are the TM operatives setting out or altering the cones.

the roadworks area is separated from the live lane by at least double cones, often TCVB's or varioguard.

speed differential shouldn't be an issue.

I'm not saying don't have reduced limits but i am doubting whether it makes any physical difference.

civil engineer,
I was talking about TM workers (i'm also responible for their safety).
I take it you are what you say on the tin.
Do construction site speed limits on haul roads or site roads aid site safety, does separating site pedestrians from tele-forks, dumpers, cranes etc. aid site safety. The HSE think they do. So do I.
I've worked on 'sites' as well as highways and have disiplined men for breaching these rules.

Paul quote "At present the authorities are taking the piss far too often"
I have no authority in these matters, I cannot stop or direct traffic with hand signals, drivers regularly pass thru temp traffic lights on red, stop /go boards, and there is nothing I can do (except slide a cone into the path of the car, if they hit it and want to argue, I can just state, the reason for the stop light/sign was so I could move that cone, should we call the police?), thats it, all I've got is petty revenge but I'm to professional to use it.

Still no comments about a truck in YOUR office

fatboytim

The above talks of police enforcement - but I have YET to see ANY enforcement - all they do is send out the penalty payment request a few days later! The perpetrator(s) are free to continue threatenig the lives of roadworkers and other motorists alike.

I have no problem with appropriately placed speed limits, and am quite happy to slow down for the benefit of road workers.
I also slow down for children, disability scooters, cyclists (with or without lights on at night!) and horses - yet they dont have a camera sending out £60 fixed penalty offers, especially when they are all safely tucked up in bed at nights. I am really concerned that when driving at nights, with very little traffic on the road, and no workmen, that I am expected to slow to well below the limit of some of our narrow lanes here in Cumbria.

As to working with a heavy truck in my office?
I have some pretty heavy machinery which frightens some of our cuctomers when it's in operation - a large guillotine which cuts 3mm brass sheet, or 2mm stainless steel. When the blade swings down with a large crash, I have to warn pensioners in the shop of the impending noise in case they have a coronary. Most are concerned that we might lose a hand. The risk is entirely in their imagination, because they dont know about the guards etc, they only hear the noise!
As long as I thought sufficient safeguards were in place, then a truck at three metres would hold no fear for me.
Now using the cycle path north of Ings, where numerous vehicles have intruded while having spectacular crashes... that worries me - despite the so called safety cameras less than half a mile away. Drivers and riders are no safer than they were without the cameras!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Hi, this is my first post on this site and i had to reply to this thread .
I was one of the 384 caught [i think] on monday the first day of the clampdown ,i live in norwich and drive for my living so i have to look out for these scum bags everyday.

These roadworks have been in place since last august and most of the work is complete and now they decide to hide a camera van behind the main junction sign it totally out of order this is a 70mph dual carriageway and the 30 mph sign has been moved nearer the roundabout which is causing everyone to brake hard to slow down to 30.

I was so angry when i spotted the camera van which was parked in a layby which is closed to all traffic that i went back to the scene and set my digital camera up on the dash [its a van] to take pictures at various intervals approaching the van and you cannot see it until you on top of it due to the fact its hidden by the road sign plus another sign its a disgrace and iam not going to except the fine and points i will go to court and fight it .
I must also add the there were 2 men working on the junction of the roundabout but they were working behind the central reservation barriers right on the roundabout at this point most vehicles will be either at a standstill or going less than 30mph anyway .

fatboytim, , know where you are coming from and can see both sides of the issues. If the roadworks drag on and there appears to be no-one around then joe public don't take it seriously, a car or artic strolls through the cone dead road worker !! I don't envy your position. As for ideas on controlling traffic, drop me a line I know another safety advisor who works in highways who might have some ideas.

Regards

SE

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

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