Safe Speed Forums

four cyclists killed, 8 others injured (including the car driver), who was coming the opposite direction.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4592412.stm
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08012006/344/f ... ision.html

a terrible day

I smell responsibility. Surely proper policing would have taken the opportunity to warn traffic, or have the road gritted or something?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Not meaning to belittle the event, but I guess the site now qualifies for a speed camera.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

well it's not SPEEDING but if 50mph on an icy road isn't excessive I don't know what is.

I don’t know the circumstances of this accident, but the ice may have been from a stream of frozen water across the road. It doesn’t necessarily mean the whole length of road was icy. If so the driver would not have know until he was right on it.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

lets not get into recriminations just yet....

suffice to ask the question... could it have been me?

That is all the more reason that any number of near misses earlier or the earlier non-KSI RTA should have alerted anyone in a position of authority travelling that road to do something about it, be it policeman, council worker or whoever. I wonder if police operations will reveal that any police car went over that stretch of road earlier and did NOT report it in as something to deal with, or possibly worse, DID report it in for attention and there it sat... Who knows - and I doubt we (ie public) ever will.

Is it a good idea to go out for a leisure cycle ride in icy conditions?

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

no

Anyone have any ideas as to why only one other car had a problem on the road? Presumably they weren't the only 2 cars on the road.

We don't have a lot of information to what the police did. They may have put out "Ice" or "POLICE SLOW" signs but these both suffer from Cry Wolf syndrome, often left out long after the danger is passed. Gritting is of limited use on sheet ice and it could take a few hours to get a wagon to a certain location.

With hindsight they could have kept a police presence at the site but then they have limited resources, they can't just sit around all day.

On the face of it the cyclists were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's hard to see that any real blame can be attached to anyone involved in this.

Shit happens - take extreme care in icy conditions.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

from a cycling newsgroup

I can hardly believe that the Police attended a crash on the same stretch then deserted the scene and allowed another crash to take place. It isn't common to find a road with actual live ice on the surface, and when you do that's an extreme and urgent warning.

Accordingly Safe Speed issued the following PR at 16:20 this afternoon:

PR276: Did a policing failure lead to four deaths in North Wales this morning?

news: for immediate release

The BBC reports that four cyclists were killed In North Wales after a car lost
control on ice. Normally this would just be a terrible tragedy, but if the BBC
report is correct, Police attended an accident on the same road an hour
earlier, also due to ice.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "Initial reports suggest that North Wales police
had an opportunity to prevent this tragedy but failed to take it. They could
have warned traffic, closed the road or called in the gritters. They should
know how unpredictable icy road surfaces can be. Did they really know the
danger and walk away? Safe Speed demands a full public investigation."

<ends>

Notes for editors
=================

BBC report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4592412.stm

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I had a situation similar to this last year, freezing conditions were forecast, I was on my way home from work on a dual carriageway, and drove over a stream of water flowing across the road, possibly burst water main, it was sufficient to forcibly slow me down, I could feel the pull of the water.
I pulled over and immediately phoned the council, and brownie points to them, they took it seriously and within the hour there was a repair team on site so I am informed by the council later, who phoned me back and thanked me for my contacting them.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

It seems to me that anyone driving along at 50 mph knowing the temperature is close or even at freezing , and then maintaining this speed round a bend is taking a serious risk.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

It obviously wanst so icy that cyclysts couldnt use it

But they can sit all day protecting a speed camera van.

lol, you havetnt been paying attention.
Theres always someone to blame, and a speed limit to be ruduced, not to mention money to be made.

In snowy conditions it is obvious that grip is low and we can all drive accordingly.

When we're driving on minor roads that are untreated in sub zero weather, we're aware of the lack of treatment and drive accordingly.

But on A roads and motorways which are normally well treated, it is rare indeed to come across an icy surface. I've met non-obvious ice on an A road once in my 33 year driving career, and non-obvious ice on a motorway also just once.

The ice on an A road was the A25 somewhere near Dorking on a double bend. Although conditions were dry it was very cold and water had been spilling across a dry road (perhaps from some sort of leak). At 1am or so there wasn't much traffic, but nevertheless I felt it was my duty to warn traffic until the Police (who I'd phoned) arrived.

I just cannot understand that the Police in Wales could be aware of the problem and then 'go away'. I regard unexpected ice on A roads as extremely unusual and extremely dangerous.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety