Safe Speed Forums

Trouble with Road Craft - assumes level of knowledge and skill is already there in first place - so it does not spell out each exact detail.

Sometimes shorter gap - 1 to 1.5 secs gives you slightly better view of open road and steadiness of car we wish to overtake. For us - depends on road we are on.. some deceptive ones around here Obvious hazards are junctions, cyclists ahead, oncoming traffic, gap to move into and numpty behaviour on part of chap in front .... Sometimes the gap of less than two seconds is safer in certain conditions. But really - you have to know your car's capabilities and your own abilities and common sense...hence need to encourage a continuous learning and information system.

Actually, this makes you less vulnerable to one thing that the overtakee might do -- put his foot down the moment he realises he's being overtaken. That speed differential is a life-saver, particularly if you're driving a comparatively low-powered vehicle.

FWIW, I've lost count of the times I've followed a dawdler at 35 to 40 mph along a certain road with only two overtaking opportunities in ten miles. Trying things the Road Craft way has had me stranded on the wrong side of the road when the dawdler wakes up and puts his foot down. I've then been involved in a braking competition with said dawdler when I attempt to abort the overtake.

No, the Road Craft method is far too dangerous unless you have power in reserve -- and that's something my van doesn't have. The "slingshot" overtake is much safer because you can see any hazard that may cause the overtakee to brake suddenly (which you can't for much of the Road Craft way) and that speed differential means you can overtake safely even if the overtakee speeds up after you've committed to the overtake (twazacks in high-performance cars excluded, but they don't normally need to be overtaken!). Also, commencing the manoeuvre from so far back means that you can safely abort the overtake should that be necessary.

WRT the overtakee pulling out, the "slingshot" means that you're committed about the same time as you would be with the Road Craft method. However, you are in the overtakee's blind spot for less time (with the Road Craft diagram you are in the blind spot for the entire decision-making time [the first part of Paul's item 3]). So, overtakees should be less likely to catastrophically pull out on you with a "slingshot" overtake than the Road Craft way. In any case, if you're in a queue of traffic behind a slow-moving vehicle, do you not have the manners to wait your turn to overtake? IOW, a overtakee pull-out is unlikely if there's nothing for the overtakee to overtake!

WRT missing some overtaking opportunities -- so what! Personally, I'd rather miss the odd overtaking opportunity than wind up rear-ending someone who slammed the brakes on to avoid a deer, dog, horse, etc. that wasn't seen because of following too close to see what's ahead of the vehicle in front.

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Will

Will - reading Road Craft will not make you a better driver - nor will reading "Essential Skills", "Towing/Motorcycle/Fleet Craft" or Pula Ripley, "RoadCraft // What If? Videos"

You need to PRACTICE It is really about how well you apply what you learn to your driving. Any technique described in all these worthy tomes will depend on your judgement according to the circumstances you come across. You practise these techniques in bitesize chunks. Perfection takes time and patience.

You know - do not wish to brag about the relatives - but .... some of them represented their country in Alpine Sport events. I have seen them practice - one single manouvrre hundreds of times before they got it right. The same applies to driving. Perfecting the skill - it takes concentration, time and effort. And it is one skill which improves with experience and exposure.

All good points. However, I interpreted Paul's quoting of the Road Craft method of overtaking as justification for tailgating while waiting for an overtaking opportunity. IMO, the Road Craft method that Paul posted is flawed (potentially fatally) and I was just pointing out the problems viz:

• Lack of speed differential, which prolongs the overtaking manoeuvre and leaves the overtaker susceptible to bloody minded "terratorialism" on the part of the overtakee.
• Prolonged time in the overtakee's blind spot.
• Restriction of view and thus inability to perceive hazards.
• Lack of reaction time from being too close to the vehicle in front.

To my mind, a desire to overtake is no justification for tailgating and anyone adopting the "overtaking position" behind me is likely to be held up even more because I will lift off the accelerator to put double the normal distance between me and the car in front.

Come to think of it, I remember posting some months ago about when a tailgater ran into my tow bar. (See http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=355 - about the sixth post from the top) FWIW, the tailgater had adopted the "overtaking position" shown in the Road Craft extract that Paul provided. If you look at that illustration, the overtaking car is then about a car length behind the vehicle it is about to overtake. At 40 mph, that is only about a quarter of a second. Are you really trying to justify following another vehicle at that sort of separation while waiting for a suitable overtaking opportunity?

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Will

Good - that gives me the space to move into when I overtaker you!

Try not to get into someone's blind spot . But Will - you have to remember that I spent many hours practising this one manoeuvre in the past- and spend same sort of hours on refresh courses . Mad Doc and his wife also spent some time on a track day doing this sort of thing as well.


But that is the problem - possible - without upsetting others too much - if you really know what you are doing. That is why we should be encouraging constant training.

But the book is showing a diagram. An example. In reality - you adapt the technique to the circumstance and road condition which prevails at the time. Mad Lad did say above - "Road Craft" assumes certain degree of knowledge - a bit like reading an 'A' Level text after your 'O' Level ... The initial core has to be there - in place on initial L/test - and perhaps this is where we need to focus to move on.

And I would give you every assistance to get past safely. However, don't you consider forcing me to think for both our safety -- to make allowances for your dangerous behaviour -- just a little unacceptable?


But then the physics of the situation don't lend themselves to safety. If you overtake as per my understanding of that illustration then you're following too close for too long; restricting your view and your ability to anticipate; etc.

I would hope that in reality you're doing something like:

• Closing the gap just before the overtake;
• Moving to the right when clear to do so to get an uninterrupted view of the road into which you'll drive;
• Only committing to the overtake when you know that it's safe to do so.

However, if you're really following at less than a second for an indeterminate distance waiting for an opportunity to overtake, you have me worried ...

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Will

Re the last point...me too!

The IAM manual I have advises closing the gap when an anticipated overtake opportunity arises, but not 'rushing' up to the back of the overtakee. It then goes on to say that you should back off again if the opportunity doesn't materialise.

The problem with too many overtakers is that they will tailagte for as long as is necessary, ducking and weaving about in your door and main mirrors. I personally hate this; the overtaker may not have forceful or aggressive intentions but this is just how it can appear.

I think the problem is exacerbated when someone is trying to overtake along a road they don't know very well, as opposed to one they do know and are aware of the places where it is possible to overtake.

And of course you can't cater for the terminally impatient, such as the 'suit' in the VW (or Audi or whatever it was) who tried to squeeze past me on the chevrons at the approach to Cosford today, even though I was (and had been for 50 odd yards) indicating right to take up the filter lane to turn in towards the base. He gave me a right mouthful through hisn open window, as he waited at the lights (what was the point trying to overtake in the first place ), but then looked a bit sheepish when I pointed out that he'd get along a lot better if he just concentrated on what he was doing rather than trying to tread on other people gonads, pointing to the fact that his left indicator had been going constantly since he'd emerged from the M54 roundabout directly in front of a tranny van

Oh IG, I do wish there were more of your chaps about to catch these spankers red handed and deliver the acid lecture

Aw! But there are those little blue lights, big flashing headlights, and the "woo-woos!"

Off -duty - like to chill out and admire the scenery of your exhaust pipe. Only joking - just like to enjoy the scenery.......




Ah - but you use common sense - if you cannot overtake - you do the above and you back off and wait for next safest opportunity - if you still feel there is a need. This is where you have to read between lines of these excellent driving manuals. Preparing for a neat zappy overtake is to be over and done with asap - and riding on someone's rear end indefinitely for overtake opportunity is a tailgate activity. Rule is simple - I do not place myself/colleagues/other people in danger - whether at work or with the family.

Have pulled and had quiet word when seen it. Only thing you can do is try to pull in, go once around the roundabout again to shake them if the muppet persists.



Too true. Happens all the time in tourist season Historic town - country picnics ..... People do not know how to read a road - with or without markings.



This has always amused me . It amuses the Mad Cats too. In fact -the whole family is amused by this carry on. Mad Lad's sister was in 30 mph zone in urban area last week. She says she was overtaken at speed (estimated at 50 + mph and scary -)- on road with hatchings and bollards - and buses - (= pedestrian is lurking somewhere!). She caught up with him at traffic lights - which turned to green on her approach so she just wafted past him - he was first car stopped at lights - just over white line -( so Mad lad's sister tells us) - in outer lane which was a turn right only but he wanted to go straight on as well. Aparently - he charged up to her rear bumper again She let him pass - he gets stopped at next lights. She told us all " He sits there revving his engine, preening and leering at her .. and stalls when it changes to green." Fortunately these were those horrid rapid change lights - red again before one car crosses - so she managed to lose him...


When are we going to teach how to read a road properly? How do we teach how to read a road properly? Faults must lie in initial education - My elder kids drive. Chose reputable driving school - booked lesson en bloc at different times of day. Lessons were daily - even twice daily at times. Then got one of the relations to take them for practice (We would have fallen out if I had done it ) But - one thing those of us in this family with driving age kids have noted - you need to shop around for ADIs... Standards do indeed vary! Perhaps that is something else which we need to address - too.



Indeed a twazak to use the family's term.



So do we! And the lecture effect is much scarier than the NIP 14 days after the event!