Safe Speed Forums

I think I saw the most dangerous single piece of overtaking I've ever seen yesterday.

The road is a part of the A9 in the highlands. It's single carriageway and there's a slight rise, then a brow (blind, but not very sharply blind) after the brow there's a left hand curve.

It's possible to overtake safely on the rise and pull in before the brow.

On this occasion I'm following a queue of four vehicles, HGV at the front, car, van and another HGV. There four are so close together that I've decided that I can't possibly overtake because there's nowhere to pull back in. The front HGV is doing 40mph, so we're all doing 40mph. As we start on the rise a white van moves to overtake me. No problem; there's a nice return gap for him in front of me.

I'm stunned as the white van decides to stay out and starts to pass the group in front of me. The white van stays out over the brow and around the left hand bend and eventually passes the 4. If anything had come the other way there would have been a very big crash. Fortunately nothing did come the other way. Pure luck.

Immediately after this the front HGV pulls into a layby. I consider trying to gather the data and a witness to report dangerous driving, but I'd have to chose between the front HGV driver as witness and chasing the white van to get his details. I do neither.

There are so many obvious faults to create this whole scenario, I hardly know where to begin.

The HGV speed limit didn't need to be 40mph and the front HGV could easily and safely have been doing 56mph.

The 40mph HGV was causing traffic behind to bunch and I suspect that meant that the white van couldn't see a way out of the path he'd started on. If there had been a gap to pull back in he might have taken it.

Obviously traffic shouldn't bunch so tightly that no return gaps are available to overtaking traffic.

When the bunched traffic saw the white van getting into trouble one of them should have opened a return gap.

The white van driver should have known much better than to start to overtake without an identified return gap. But we've never taught drivers to overtake, and a few words about planning a return gap in the Highway Code are nowhere near enough. Rule 138

A double white line might have helped, but it's possible to cautiously overtake a 15mph tractor near the brow, so a double white line system would sometimes be inconvenient.

My conclusion is that the original causal factor for the incident is bonkers HGV40 speed enforcement. Without that the front HGV wouldn't have been doing 40mph - just 2 years ago 40mph HGV on this road were as rare as hens' teeth - they were rightly travelling at their top limited speed of 56mph. If the front HGV hadn't been doing 40mph, the following traffic wouldn't have been so bunched. And if the front HGV had been doing 56mph, it's quite possible the white van wouldn't have decided to overtake at all.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

You have a point about training drivers to overtake safely, but I think you're being a little bit hard on the HC. Rule 138 isn't the only advice about overtaking, and 142 covers the situation you describe exactly, saying don't overtake if you can't see far enough ahead. It even gives approaching the brow of a hill as an example. Not enough to stop the knuckle dragger who passed you, unfortunately. The nutter probably hasn't looked at it for years and probably doesn't give a damn anyway.

No argument with you about the 40 limit for lorries. It'd make much more sense if they could all do the same speed as other traffic, or at least closer to it. Coaches can do 50, so why not HGVs? Especially wide or heavy loads would onviously have to go slower still, but they usually get a police excort if they're likely to cause traffic problems, don't they?

As a matter of interest, since you have a mine of info about accidents and causes, do we have an idea of the numbers/proportions of accidents caused by dangerous overtakes? If so, does that information include the type of vehicle overtaking and the type being overtaken? As you say, the difference in speed affects things when it comes to HGVs, but I've seen some dodgy overtaking of caravans, tractors and horse boxes too.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

While the van driver was on the wrong side of the road was his view of the road ahead enough to see round that bend far enough so that to him the overtake was a safe one?

I agree about the bunching problem. I think it is partly because drivers seem to think that overtaking has suddenly become illegal and that no-one should go passed. Or they think it is like queue jumping and rude. The worst types sit up each others bumpers then when the road widens when you want to get passed they suddenly accelerate to 50 so you can't really get passed reasonably or without getting towards 70 if you want to get passed them briskly.

I wonder how many overtakers are overtaking with not enough speed differential because they are making sure they stick to 60 as they pass another car on an nsl? This obviously have serious consequences if they're staying out on the wrong side of the road longer than they need to. I have noticed that I am likely to look at my speedo and make sure I am not going too quickly (<70) which to me is a dangerous behaviour. I should be scanning the road ahead but I'm checking the speedo???

I suspect the critical training and HC error here was "failing to identify a return gap". Everyone knows that you don't overtake when you can't see ahead. Sometimes folk make misjudgements or misobservations and do it anyway, but in general no-one INTENDS to stay out through blind bends and brows. I'm guessing that the nutter probably planned to overtake the rear vehicle of the four and then pull in. That would probably have been OK. But he didn't look for his return gap and when he got there he found that there wasn't one. So he stayed out because he had no idea what else to do.



I'll see what I can dig up. From memory, about 6% of crashes are overtaking crashes, but that doesn't tell the whole story because overtaking crashes tend to have exceptional severity. I also recall that most overtaking crashes are connected with junction traffic, not oncoming vehicles as one might guess.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Certainly not for passing an HGV. Although the left hand bend view is superior to the brow view, it certainly isn't enough to be on the wrong side of the road at 50mph plus.

[I've driven this road literally thousands of times and I overtake constantly. I think I know all the views from all the road positions. And I have been trained to overtake! I'm not shy of taking an offside position for a jolly good look.]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I've just returned from a trip to the west of Dumfries & Galloway. The main road across the whole region is the A75, 100 miles of wide single carriageway, with the very occasional climbing lane. However, all along the road are signs reminding HGVs of the 40 limit, with the result that it's very easy to get stuck behind one for a few miles - particularly if a ferry-load of cars are coming past the other way.

It must be time someone in a position to do something about it realised that this limit is silly, and at times downright dangerous.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

This is an obvious example of the recent enforcement of an outdated speed limit which was set back in the 1960's when trucks were not fitted with air brakes, exhaust brakes and engine retarders as standard.
The 40mph limit was intended to contribute to road safety back then. Nowadays, with road improvements and technological advancements in vehicle design, it only creates the scenario described by Paul.
This limit was never enforced by the members of the Traffic Police and they have actually encouraged truck drivers to speed up to alleviate frustration caused to other road users. Sadly this common sense approach has now been overtaken by greed and profiteering by the camera partnerships and as a result the relationship enjoyed between truck drivers and Police is being eroded although it is the scamera partnership who are actually causing the problem.
This speed limit is very frustrating for truck drivers and I have yet to meet anyone who thought it was necessary. There are an increasing number of truck drivers who now stick ridgidly to the 40mph limit, given the amount of drivers who are now being banned under the totting up procedure and as a result they have temporarily lost their livelihood.
When you consider the fact many HGV drivers cover in excess of 100 000 miles per year in their trucks and they are now receiving a six month driving ban for "speeding" at something like 46mph on a major road such as the A1, there appears to be something very wrong with the law and its enforcement.
I am in touch the Alan Beith MP for Northumberland who is attempting to bring the speed limit up to date before a serious accident is caused by the camera partnerships very lucrative enforcement of this archaic law.

Oh poo, if it was thursday west bound from Gretna to Dumfries and it was a DFDS artic, it could well have been me.....
Sorry about that, but I sort have got used to having a driving licence now, and would like to keep it. Most of that road, I would be much happier at 50mph than 40, but they want to play their silly stupid games, so I will too, to keep my licence.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Lol, nah, Thursday was my day for fishing and drinking. (Went up for 1 day's holiday, then came back!) But I accept your point. I'm not cross with HGV drivers, more with the people who insist that you drive at such unrealistic speeds.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

On the topic of dangerous overtaking - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/3922621.stm
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A 48-year-old woman was killed and two people were seriously injured in a crash in Wiltshire on Friday evening.

Police say a car driving north on the A36 at Whiteparish crashed when a car travelling south pulled out to overtake a line of traffic.

The driver, a Wiltshire woman who now lives in Sussex, lost control of her car trying to avoid a black Corsa

The Corsa, which was overtaking traffic slowing up behind a lorry (my bold), did not stop at the scene of the accident.

Police investigating the incident are keen to trace its driver.

They say they want to hear from anyone who saw any examples of "poor or aggressive driving" southbound on the A36 at 1810 BST on Friday.
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I've no idea what the road is like there or what the limit is, so it's hard to say that it's a similar situation to the one SafeSpeed described - idiot overtaking and traffic bunched up because of a lorry doing 40 on an NSL road. But it sounds like it could be, doesn't it. Sadly the consequences in this case were tragic.

An update to the story is that the police have arrested someone. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/3925015.stm

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I reckon many drivers think they know how to overtake properly, but actually don't!





I think the problem with overtaking is that some drivers see this as the maneouvre of the terminally impatient, particulalry when travelling in long lines of nose-to-tail traffic where the gains are going to be minimal. I must admit to getting irritated when I pick up a 'tail gunner' who dodges and weaves, craning his/her neck for an opportunity to get past and perhaps makes one or two failed attempts; just such a chap made a suicidal lunge to pass me along a 50m stretch of the A44 last Friday afternoon. He was foiled by a car appearing around the bend and fortunatley aborted the move before he'd pushed it too far. Judging by the gesticulating from his female passenger I think he got a bollocking because he decided to give up and resign himself to a long slog like the rest of us

What I DON'T do however, although I'll hold my hand up in all honesty and admit I used to, is deliberately close the gap to the car ahead thereby preventing the overtaking car from getting back in. I see this loads of times (on dual carriageways where the road narrows to one lane as well), and is just about the most bloody-minded and dangerous thing you can do to 'teach someone else a lesson'.

Unless of course, someone knows different.

BTW, if they are THAT desperate to get by, I now try and move across and let them. I'd sooner they collide with someone else rather than me.

Absolutely. I'd guess that less than 1% of drivers understand optimal techniques for overtaking. I don't know of ANY publication that tells the story in adequate detail. (including Roadcraft!).

I think the reason for this is that many folk (including me!) are afraid that the set of techniques will be misunderstood and applied unsafely - that's the exact reason that there isn't a "how to overtake" page on the Safe Speed web site.

The only really safe way to learn overtaking technique is under individual instruction. Yet 99% of drivers have been left to work it out for themselves.

Overtaking isn't aggressive - it's a proper part of skilled and careful driving. The perception that it's aggressive usually comes from a lack of understanding of the techniques and the process by those not skilled in the art.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

People have a rather unfortunate tendency to view overtaking as queue-jumping, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Someone overtaking you is hardly likely to increase your journey time by more than couple of seconds, if at all - whereas a queue jumper at a supermarket, for example, can delay you for several minutes or more.
I've lost count of the number of times I've been flashed at, hooted at or gesticulated at for having the nerve to perform a perfectly save, albeit brisk, overtake.

Regards
Peter

I'm sure you are both right, although I sometimes think that on a packed road with traffic disappearing into the distance its rather a waste of time and effort, particulalry if it's pissing other drivers off with rash and/or failed attempts or moves that cause others to brake to let the overtaker get across in time. As an aside, I remember a Ford Sierra barging (that's the best way to describe it) its way up the A43 one hot and busy Friday afternoon back in the late 80s. It had passed me some 30 odd mins ago when the traffic suddenly slowed, the reason soon became obvious. The Sierra had run off the road into a ditch on a bend, it was the only vehicle involved thankfully. The traffic had slowed because loads of other hot and bothered drivers were winding down their windows and hurling abuse at the driver as they went past.

Whilst I don't view overtaking in free traffic 'queue jumping' I certainly would if I were in a slow moving line heading for an event or show and someone rushed down the clear lane and tried to rejoin near the entrance. Perhaps I'm just anal about this sort of behaviour, but I figure it's just plain rude and arrogant; what if we ALL decided to behave like this?

Finally, I recall reading a piece in the newspaper written by an anthropologist about peoples behaviour towards one another in their cars versus that whilst on foot. He concluded by saying that if standards of behaviour keep falling the way they are people will soon be doing the pedestrian equivalent of tailgating and queue jumping on the pavements and in the post office

The people who are, in my experience, the most likely to take umbrage at being overtaken are those paid-up members of the '45mph club' - those who insist on doing 45 on a NSL for no good reason, and with a completely clear road ahead of them.
What's worse is when these collect a string of cars behind them, none of which seem willing to overtake - so when you arrive at the back of the queue you either have to hope that a nice long overtaking stretch or dual carriageway comes up soon so you can blast past them, pick them off one by one, or just resign yourself to sitting there for the next 20 miles or so.

I think I saw the worst ever overtaking manouvre the other day. It was again on this trip back from Scotland, and I had just arrived at the back of a queue of cars headed by two HGVs doing 45-50. The traffic was all too densely bunched for my liking, so I decided I'd just take it easy for a bit and wait for the DC to get past them. However, 2 miles later, white van man appears behind me. He's looking very much like he wants to get past, so I decided to increase the gap to the car in front a bit to make sure he could get back in safely. Next thing I know, on goes his right indicator, and out into the other lane he goes. Fair enough.. Except he then didn't pull in to the gap that I'd left, but pulled in parallel to the car in front - it was quite wide, so there was just about room for the two of them. He then waited there for the oncoming traffic to clear (right indicator still on all this time), and eventually got past the whole queue by basically treating the middle of the road as if it were a third lane. Kind of hard to describe, but it was certainly a bit unnerving.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

This case is a salutary warning for anyone contemplating reckless overtaking:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3932981.stm

Four years for death crash driver

A man who killed three members of the same family in a head-on car crash has been jailed for four years.

Scott Currie, 30, a father-of-four, had admitted causing death by driving dangerously on the A96 near Glens of Foudland in Aberdeenshire.

Currie had been driving at about 55mph when he attempted to overtake and found himself on the wrong side of the road, facing the Thomsons' blue Nissan.

Other drivers could see a collision was inevitable. Currie tried to get back onto his side of the road but his vehicle then smashed into the Thomsons' car.

You do wonder whether this was part of a pattern of reckless behaviour or simply an isolated error of judgment. If the latter, the sentence seems harsh, but on the other hand we are not in possession of all the facts.

It also raises the question of whether none of the other drivers could have done anything to prevent this accident occurring. The phenomenon of drivers closing gaps to prevent overtakers getting back in is well known.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Though it won't stop bad overtaking, I think that the LGV limits are crazy. Have you ever seen the size of a 44 tonne artics brake discs? They are massive. Then you've got Jake Brakes and transmission retarders to back that up. 56 mph limited trucks are the cause of much congestion on motorways.

I worked in the states for a couple of years we had 430hp Pete's that were limited to 70, that seemed about right and we only had drum brakes. Also all the drivers were novices and often moving oversized loads. To limit professional drivers of modern machinery to 40 is stoopid. Did you know that are farm tractors that can go faster than that now?

It probably won't stop bad overtakes from total idiots who just don't care, but it might reduce some of the one off bad decisions caused by frustration. By the way, what are Jake Brakes?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I think Jake Brake is a brand name, but it is an exhaust brake. It stops the exhaust gas leaving the cylinder and has a considerable braking effect.