Safe Speed Forums

Has anyone noticed this before...

On 4 lane roads (2 in either direction) and travelling at good speed in the RH lane you approach a lorry in the LH lane with a car following it. The car stays behind the lorry as you the distance between you and them closes. As you approach the car following the lorry they suddenly pull out in front of you to pass the lorry as well. This usually calls for a spot of braking as they are travelling slower than you.

A good driver will see the lorry and the car following it, check the relative speeds between them and anticipate them pulling out if the car is travelling faster than the lorry. However I've seen the above happen when the car is keeping apace with the lorry. I've also seen a case when 2 cars have been happily sitting behind a lorry until I approach in the RH lane. The 2nd car sees me and decides to pull out in front of me. 1st car sees the car behind pull out and then pulls out as well! Result was all 3 cars slowing down to about 50mph from approx 65 - 70+mph.

Yeah, its called TOTAL lack of forward planning and I see it happen all the time. I wonder sometimes if its just bad timing that they pull out in front of me, or whether its just the realisation that they're going slower than the rest of the traffic and therefore have to overtake RIGHT NOW! I doubt that its malicious most of the time.

Like you said, if I'm on a DC or motorway and I see a lorry looming infront of me I'm looking for a space in L2 / 3 a good 1/4 mile before I have to move over and sometimes if its busy I'll pull out sooner than I really need to if I can see a gap to take (usually coupled with a slight increase in speed to keep pace with the traffic in the lane I'm moving into). If I have to shed speed then I see it as a failure in my observation / planning.

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often i think this is the driver following the lorry being too timid...

i often anticipate this kind of thing, and back off a little to give them room to get in front of me... only to find them slowing further or even braking.
at some point i have to make the decision to pass them and the lorry.... trying to do so quickly and firmly.. usually at the point i put my foot down to do this the following car will then decide to pull out

if they had been ascertive.... indicated and accelerated approriately i would be ready and willing to co-operate with them.... but yes.. very often they wait till the worst possible moment to make thier move.

I also experienced this on SC roads. You are approaching a lorry with a car following at the same speed, you can see the road ahead is clear so you indicate to overtake and pull out. Just as you get near the car behind the lorry he/she decides to overtake as well, causing you to brake and loose momentum, often meaning you then have to pull in behind the lorry and wait for another opportunity.

It’s as though the car that was waiting behind the lorry has to be cajoled into a decision “well if they can overtake it must be OK for me to overtake”. They don’t seem to realise that you had the momentum to get past safely, where they now have to pull out and accelerate, taking longer to get past, and now may not be as safe as they thought.

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Yet another good reason to get COAST message across to all. We are trying to get this included in a THINK! advert campaign but the powers that be do appear obsessed by speed.messages despite including it in Speed Courses (offered to marginals who do benefit from a reminder /refresher - but who were subconsciously using this code for the most part anyway as safe drivers who blipped Such blipper folks benefit more from little chat with traffic BiB if need arises and usually just the reminder chat and full discretion given)

Case of not using mirrors or assessing speed properly and planning based on observations of traffic around them. But with these "timid COAST unaware " types - look at their road position carefully on approach - sometimes this alerts of possible overtake on their part.

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I also experienced this on SC roads. You are approaching a lorry with a car following at the same speed, you can see the road ahead is clear so you indicate to overtake and pull out. Just as you get near the car behind the lorry he/she decides to overtake as well, causing you to brake and loose momentum, often meaning you then have to pull in behind the lorry and wait for another opportunity.

Not sure what others would advocate here, but I *Never ever ever* follow anyone through on an overtaking manouevre on a single carriageway road. If they pull out into my path, I get back inside irrespective of how much gun they give it. If they're already out there, or if they come out in to my path, I always get/stay in, wait for them to get back across and then reassess.

Several reasons, but principally the chances of being caught in no man's land are way too high.

Yes, a lot of drivers don't seem to realise that they may need to overtake a lorry until they're right up its backside

Generally you develop a sort of sixth sense that it's going to happen and can either move out or back off a little.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I don't see a fundamental need to pull back in. In these situations I'll position for vision, frequently getting a view between the vehicles ahead, sometimes right down the offside. I do agree that there's a great need to wait and not blindly follow through, but sometiems there's just so much vision and clear road that there's no problem with a suitably cautious follow through providing that vision can be maintained throughout.

The norm for me is to slow so that I'm not actually overtaking, maintain a view for overtaking, and pass as soon as it's clear to do so. Pulling back to the left is only necessary if other vehicles might need the space I'm occupying.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

if i see a lorry + car i usually hang back anyway... unless they're doing something like 20mph under the limit, chances of a long enough, clear enough bit of road with enough visibility to pass both safely are so slim i wouldnt sweat it.

(or perhaps i need a more powerful car.... hmm.. yes that must be it )

I don't wish to be too cynical but I do think that people do this at times, because they suddenly realise that someone is going to overtake them and for some reason their competitive nature takes over.

They pull out just to stop you from overtaking them.

It could be the fault of the car companies who adevrtise that their car is the ultimate driving machine, or the drive of your life, or whatever they say to attract the buyer in the first place.

It is not so bad as the aggresive drivers who race down the slip road onto a motorway and cross the hatched area to get out into the road first and then accelerate hard along the inside lane stopping others from getting out. Now they really do need a check up from the neck up.

ok rant over

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I'll throw my lot in with the arguement that these idiots do do it out of spite.

Once had it done to me on a very wide A road... as I had good observation and closing speed and my only other course of action would have been hard braking I did the double, so to speak. The old git that tried to block me went nuts, flashing his lights and blaring his horn...

Lived in london for a few years now so not really driven the type of roads overtaking is an issue for a while but my experiences of being blocked in the past lead me to believe that the safest type of vehicle is one so quick you're already past before the idiots have realised you intend to pass. ie spontaneous acceleration as opposed to having a run.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

I once had a transit come up my inside while I was adopting the "best visibility but hanging back" approach, forcing me into a slightly iffy overtake or a hard brake (I took the former but had perhaps only a second's clearance after passing the first vehicle. Had the one overtaking first cut in sharply and eased off I'd have been in real trouble. I do agree in principle with what you say though for the most part.

Hmmm. Nasty. I guess the problem-to-be-managed here is not your own overtake but the risk caused by the Transit. I'm very wary if other vehicles are close to me while overtaking, but I don't recall ever experiencing the problem you describe. Perhaps putting my eyeline on the centreline for vision tends to make it clear to following traffic that I'm pausing before overtaking?

There's a controversial third option in addition to the two you described. You might simply steer left and force the Transit to give way and let you back in. Of course if he doesn't give way you're risking causing a crash, but it'll usually work and might sometimes be the least worst option (i.e. the smallest risk of the smallest crash). I recall once doing something broadly equivalent many years ago, but I don't seem to be able to remember the exact circumstances. It may even have been the same - someone moving up on the nearside while I was 'out' contemplating an overtake. I do recall thinking: "I need that bit of road now, and I'm taking it." I'm not saying that the technique is recommended, but it should be there somewhere on the list of emergency options.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think they see you coming and planning an easy pass which wakes them up to the idea of an easy pass. They are following your example, but in a 'jumping in first' kind of way.

On occasion I'm sure there's an element of 'me first' too, but in my personal estimation that's probably less than 10% of cases.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

This transit "incident" happened in the late 1970s. I had a car (Princess 2200 - another story) full of people. I was a student. I was not particularrly experienced - and it is possible I - or more likely my inebriated passengers - had riled the transit driver with gesticulations when I had passed it earlier. Despite my inexperience, I did not want a road rage incident. I am still quite wary of it though even now and will tend to keep in/back until I have a clear shot.

Ye cannae change the laws of physics, Captain!

Understood. You learned from the experience and have been guarding against the danger ever since. That's an amazingly important part of the way that road safety actually works (of course).

But I must say 'road rage' (with or without the specific phrase) wasn't really on my radar in the late 1970s. It seemed to come in at about the same time as traffic calming...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That's a bit of a leap. Surely more likely to be a consequence of increased congestion.

<Old Fart Mode>

More likely just a symptom of the general collapse of good manners, respect, knowledge of "responsibilities" v "rights", general discipline, etc etc..

</Old Fart Mode>

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Sorry... it wasn't a serious suggestion of a causal link and probably should have had a or a with it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety