Safe Speed Forums

Back from hols taking the car to Switzerland and Germany.
Driving in Switzerland was a revelation. I had been led to understand that Swiss drivers were unpredictable so you took your life in your hands there.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Observance of traffic laws including speed limits was exemplary despite no speed cameras and very little police presence.

The idiots were so rare that you really noticed and they were invariably young males.

There were plenty of visiting drivers from Germany, Italy and Austria (very few British) but they were as well-behaved as the Swiss.

The only thing I didn't like were the long tunnels where it is quite difficult to see where you are going and there aren't the usual cues to observe,

e.g. you can only tell you are going uphill or downhill as your speed creeps down or up respectively.

The high altitude also affects your car's performance if you have only 90 bhp in a 1500 Kg car to start with.

Especially good were the warning signs for roadworks.
Road surfaces were a bit iffy in places but that's only to be expected in a mountainous region.

Public transport is brilliant so we often left the car and took the tram or train instead.
Nick.

Ist the Dalek gene which ist programmed to obey - obayyyy obeyyyyyy!

I likewise have just returned from 9 days in the Black Forest and a week at Bodensee.

Driving comparisons are difficult to make during a short trip abroad, but I must say that I found German drivers to be generally respectful of the 80kph limit on single carriageway roads which I found a little slow, and there was little or no tailgating. However on the Autobahn (A96 to and from Munich) I felt the speeds were often inappropriate for the conditions - wet with spray - there were a few nutters still trying to do +200kph, and at closing speeds which were totally inappropriate in my opinion.
I found it hard to correlate the two driving styles, unless over-enforcement on the single carriageway roads was causing people to take extra risks on the faster autobahn.

Generally though I thought that there was good courtesy through Germany Austria and Switzerland, less so in France, (a lot of which was down to British holidaymakers rushing to the ports ). There is quite a lot of high vis speed enforcement especially in France - it seems to have increased a lot in recent years.

Used a couple of good roads on my travels. If you are ever travelling to Bodensee through the Black Forest, take a detour at Tuttlingen, past the klosters at Beuron to Silmaringen, then down via Ravensburg. The road from Tuttlingen to Silmaringen follows the young Donau river and is a breathtaking road through the bottom of the deep gorge. It'd be a fantastic biker's road.

But the road that really took my breath away was one which is probably regularly used by our feline friends, that being the road from Appenzell to Altstatten in Switzerland, when you come over the brow of the hill after Gais and are faced with a gobsmackingly beautiful panorama encompassing the entire Rhein basin with the dramatic rising peaks of various Swiss and Austrian Alp groups all round. We chose to drive through there at around 8pm and the setting sun was lighting up the mountains making the sharp edges even more crisp and dramatic. What a fantastic scenic area to drive. We drove from Konstanz via Bischofszell with it's picture postcard altstadt, to St Gallen which again is a beautiful town, up to Appenzell
over speed camera protected viaducts over massive ravines, then followed the roadside mountain railway.

My photographs did no justice to the area, and it's impossible to get the feel of the scale of the landscape, but I'll have to go back to do some more exploring with a better camera!

If Willi and Jessika of the Familie Wildkatzen still follow these threads, I'd like to thank them for their pointers to the various places of interest around Bodensee. We did as many as we could including Meersburg, Lindau, Mainau and the Pfander cable car at Bregenz.

Main lesson learned however is to take the pushbikes. Bodensee is a nightmare at this time of year for traffic jams. Bikes are the only way to travel round the lake. We'll do that on our return hopefully in three years time.

How about flying to Basel or Zurich and taking train out (or even cycling to Bodensee? The going is pleasant - campsites, B&Bs, opportunity to camp wild and YHA places if you have kids.Stop at Schaffhausen and Stein am Rhein (half timbered houses and Swiss version of Rothenburg. Very very pretty. In fact I'd fly to Zurich - from here to Neuhausen and onto Schaffhausen. On the way to Schaffhausen interesting descent (not even close to New Lane at Appletreewick!) but it goes top Rhein Falls and this is really REALLY WORTH seeing!

Great sight of spectacular crashing water and spray - but go close up! Get the boat to where it crashes 500 ft wide cliffs and sit in the middle (or cycle up to Worth Castle) Great. Be warned - water is very, very cold and you get very, very wet!

Then gentlest ride on the Schaffhausen - dates 1372 and is home of watches, textiles and machinery industries. Haus zum Rittter is a must see as in the Benedictine Abbey and the Monot Tower.This is Thurgau and the Swiss vine/wine country and you can call in a taste and sample - but don't get drunk! It's an offence - hic!Tis also Appenzeller Kanton where rowdy rebels come from! Known to have the stubbornest and most "Meldrew" in the entire country - Appenzeller dialect is a nasal drawl and a lingo all of its own! Hah! )Anyway - ride along banks of Rhein (easy peasy) and sample the wines and grapes (Riesling/Sylvaner (white) /Blauburger (red)) - but the scenery is unspoilt and the finest in Switzerland and visit Paradies (monastery and quaff the monks' brews!) Then you come to Stein am Rhein (olde worlde medieval half timbered gingerbread town) (12 miles or so from Schaffhausen) Rathausplatz, Haus zur Vorderen Krone and a great Dolly Museum and Lindwurm museum for farming A really really gorgeous town and you'll love it! Continue along banks of Bodensee to Konstanz and go up the Mauritius Rotund for a stunning view of the lake. Continue and pass medieval monasteries to St Gallen (finger of God - legend has it that Gall fell onto a thorn bush and pricked his finger - and he took this to be a sign from God to build a monastery here - which he did with the help of a bear - hence the St Gallen symbol!)But to get to know St Gallen - go to the wine taverns in the old town! Lovely baroque architecture here - pleasant.Head south into Appenzeller proper. Uphill windy roads - steepish gradients at times and certainly one to watch kids with. Had to really help our youngest out here. She's just turned 6 years old and back on her bike! Go in direction of Trogen (best kept village - wins every time!) This is where we Appenzeller do the traditional voting ritual: we dress up in national costume, (Red and embroidered), dance and get a bit merry.

In 1990 they allowed wimmin to vote - yup - we were involved and elderly local men have been known to cringe at the very sight or mention of us rebel petrol headed horrors! Anyway - up until 1990 the men used to wave bayonets around. They do it for the tourists nowadays! Worth a visit for the old houses.Then continue to Appenzell. In August - cheese festival and you get free cheese and Apfelkorn most Fridays. Appenzeller is laced with Apfelkorn and it really is delish! Honest!Then cycle through the Alpstein massif (windy and hilly up to Santis - our mountain). Stop off at Uransch for coffee, cakes and Schnaps - every other building is a cafe!From Urnasch - you ride through the twisty Toggenburg valley - steep climb up to Wildhaus (where I come from) and where you'll find oldest timbered house in Switzerland and where Zwingli the reformer was born. Zwingli was a real rebel and reformed Swiss religion.

Then climb to Alt St Johann (the ski resort) and enjoy the downwards stretch to the Swiss Rhein Valley and Liechtenstein. From there cycle to Walensee and then on to Rapperswil where you can get a boat back to Zurich.

There - an epic - about 5 days at slow pace with kids. Enjoy - have bias -it's my home territory!

PS - for drivers - it's a nice drive but you miss the scenery! hahahahaha!

Enjoy!

Limp and Raggedy DollEdited to correct some spelling howlers!
Edited by - Rag Doll on 07/08/2005 17:33:53
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MandieWallingtonUnited Kingdom28 Posts Posted - 07/08/2005: 17:01:44
I'll go along with Rag Doll. Switzerland is magnificent cycling country, Fly in to any of the major cities and pick up one of the National Cycle routes (there are nine in total) No4 the Alpine panorama route is probably the most spectacular but obviously also the hilliest. But any of them are great. The longest is about 500km and the shortest about 150km, so dependant upon fitness etc. any of them should be capable of being done in 4 days, but the beauty of being in Switzerland is that if you are fed up of cycling or you need to get some where in a hurry, or avoid a 1500m climb, then bunging the bike and yourself on public transport is almost always a piece of cake.


We'll kick against the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight

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Rag Doll16 Posts Posted - 07/08/2005 : 17:43:08
You cannot beat my home country really. |There are some other lovelies at Bodensee - Bregenz and its open air opera concerts on the lake (Austrian side), Lindau (Germany) Meersburg - best and most preserved medieval town in Germany - Friedrichshafen with the Zeppelin museum, Mainau the floral island feast close to Schaffhausen.

As you say there are 10 routes - new one just published and completed - and they all criss cross and provide best scenery.And of course - we have a superb public transport system - integrated and bike friendly too.

Limp and Raggedy Doll
Edited by - Rag Doll on 07/08/2005 17:46:52

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Rag Doll16 Posts Posted - 07/08/2005 : 17:57:28
Of course - there's always the Yorkshire Dales. I have a lot of challenging and family rides in this area, which I know intimately as, live and work here. Have a great ride cross-country from Grassing ton to Aysgarth via Conistone Fell . Then there's a ride to How Stean Gorge and a walk through the Gorge.

A cycle through Wharfedale and park up the bike and walk along the Strid where the Wharfe plunges and rages through a gorge.

Cycle through the Dales and across to Cumbria or into Lancs Hills via Settle. How the hell do you decide?

UK is lovely and I settled here in God's Own Country and thought I originated from God’s Own Country too. Then you visit somewhere else - Wales, Scotland, Northumbria, Chilterns, Cotswolds, most of the coastline here and then travel to parts of France, Austria, Germany, ... and get overcome and overwhelmed and if you said name one favourite.... I'd struggle - really struggle.

But guess I'd still say North East Switzerland because that's where I grew up and where my heart is.

.Limp and Raggedy Doll

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jc4labblackburnUnited Kingdom308 Posts Posted - 07/08/2005 : 21:59:54
Thanks for the ideas so far..I prefer recommendations than choosing something from a guide book.....Ireland,Tuscany,Bavaria,Alps Normandy.the Rhine.,Majorca etc.look good...Being just for 4 days at a time I hope to do lots of these trips not just the odd one...I also like just dossing around on a bike in big cities too..its often a surprise how well bikes are catered for even in the most hectic of citiesjc


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a week at Bodensee.