Safe Speed Forums

Situation: A block of half-a-dozen streets in a residential area with street lighting (so 30-zone unless otherwise signed). There are two ways by which you can enter the block and three ways to leave (one of the exits is one-way).

The authorities decided to make it a 20 mph zone. They've erected "20" signs on one of the ways in but not the other. The way in that they've missed is a private, unmade road that is probably best attempted in a 4x4 but is nonetheless a public right of way. Because of the unsigned way in, it is possible to enter and reach any part of the block without passing a "20" sign.

So, is the 20-zone enforceable?

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Will

My opinion? Would be inclined to think the road which has the 20mph lollipops would be enforceable, and the ones which did not - not. But then again - if it is a residential road - would 30mph be the safe and appropriate speed?

Think most would choose lower speed according to parked cars, driveways and general hazards such as kids!

FWIW, the streets have parked cars on both sides and my opinion is that 30mph is too fast.

WRT enforceability, you can drive down the unsigned and then right up to the "20" sign without actually seeing a "20" sign (because you'd only see the "30" sign on the back of it). The question is whether any limit is enforceable if it possible to enter and drive around the limited zone without passing prescribed signage.

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Will

Don't the authorities have an obligation to make sure that it's possible to read the signs? I'm sure that there's rules about keeping the signs unobstucted by vegetation, repairing damaged or vandalised signs and so on. I'd have thought that failing to put a sign up would be just as much a breach of the rules as letting a bush grow in front of one.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Here's the rub -- I've just spoken to them and the highways authority know about the omission. They say that they didn't want to put up signs on that road because "no-one drives down there." However, I suspect that the real reason is because putting up the signs would oblige them to adopt and maintain the unmade roads, which is something that they've being desperately avoiding for decades. I informed them that there are cars parked on the unmade road every night and so some people were using it. It is possible to enter and drive all around that zone without ever seeing a 20 sign, so surely the zone is unenforceable.

I wait to see whether the highways authority will put up the missing signs and then see whether it will give the locals enough leverage to force the council to adopt and make up the road. I suspect that they'll try to leave things as they are, but they have passed a by-law (or whatever they do to formally change the limit) and I hope that obliges them to erect the prescribed signage.

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Will

:roll: If they knew about it why didn't they just put a couple of 20 signs pointing down the unmade road at the point it meets the surfaced one? That would prevent them having to be responsible for the unmade road and would inform drivers that they're entering a 20 zone.

I'm feeling particularly paranoid and cynical today, so I suspect there could be another factor. Drivers come out of the unmade road, don't know they're in a 20 zone, and zip along at 25 or so past a shiny new talivan bought especially for the occasion. "Whoohoo" goes the partnership, "we've just proved that speeding is a real problem in the area", as well as fined some poor sod who thought he was driving safely and legally until he got the ticket a fortnight later. Similar things have been done before. In the Egham area a talivan used to be regularly parked a few hundred yards from a pair of 30 signs almost completely obscured by vegetation, and I reckon they made a bloody fortune (busy industrial park nearby). Inevitably they must have got some complaints and the foliage was cut back so you could see the signs again. After that - and you'll never believe this! - the talivan stopped coming.

My point is that this 30 zone wasn't technically enforceable (and if it was then the law really is an ass). But while there was such a good opportunity to fine people the talivan made the best of it, safe in the knowledge that most of the suckers that got pinged would meekly pay up. Your 20 zone sounds ripe for a similar sort of trap.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

In this case, there isn't a stretch of road that the talivan could set up on. Every stretch is too short, too bendy, or got the brow of a hill in the way except for the stretches where you'd break your suspension if you went over 20mph. Also, parking is at such a premium (particularly during the school run) that it would be very unusual to find a parking place for the talivan let alone one that would give them a sight-line. Except for the school run (when no-one can do more than a couple of mph anyway) there isn't enough traffic to make the talivan's time worthwhile.

No-one in their right minds did more than about 15 mph through the zone before the reduced limit, which hasn't slowed down the local boy racers who exceeded the previous 30 limit by a large margin.

No, I suspect this is about fiscal concerns. I've heard that councils get more money for lower speed limits (can anyone confirm this?)

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Will

Cannot confirm - but it does seem logical. They are forever reducing speed limits up here and "Manchester Evening News" yesterday stated that the Labour Party would impose blanket 20mph past schools and in residential areas if they gained control of the council. In the former - fine if at peak times, and in the latter - no real issues with 24/7 limit.

(Given current hostility towards scams and a number of recent attacks on PC Gatso - one wonders if they are being politically suicidal. But then again .... postal votes...... cynical? ME? )

However, you do wonder if pedestrians see lower speed as "I can cross the road and have time to get across before the car arrives" or even if they get impatient waiting and misjudge the speed completely or even become lulled into false sense of security and even think that hit at 20mph will not KSI them!

As for your original question as to whether or not this limit can be enforced or not.... given fuller information - difficult to see how they actually could. Course - with a Prolaser III - anything is possible Whether of not they could make it stick given the signage - perhaps with good lawyer.... may get it chucked out!

But given the scenario - not viable - and more than likely they will not policing it - unless you make lots of noises and request re the boy racing nuisance factor - and they being such fly-by-nights will evaporate before plod get there. Par for the course - mate!

In Gear might know more - of course!

From scenario you give - probably our lot would turn up if residents specifically asked for enforcement, and signage would have to be correct - else tricky smart Alec lawyer could get you off!

Surely it's likely that anyone coming down the residents' road would be a resident? Thus claiming not to know the speed limit of the street outside your front door would not likely go down too well with a courtroom.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

In this case, no -- the majority are not residents. The zone contains a school and is convenient, free parking for many local ameneties. The majority of people who use the streets are not residents but mums, shoppers, etc. If you risk your suspension on the unmade entry to the zone, your route gives you priority of everyone who uses the surfaced roads and so many go that way to get to the school quicker. So, there are many who genuinely do not know of the restriction.

In any case (back to my original question) just what is the speed limit. If you take one route, you don't see any signs and so the limit must surely be 30. All that should matter is that you can get there without being served notice of the restriction.

FWIW, the local highway authority have confirmed that the 20 limit is unenforceable.

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Will

Is the right answer.

For a 20mph limit, no sign = no fine.

They also need a road traffic order to impose the limit.

It would appear from the description that the limit on this road will be 30mph if you can stand the bumps.

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It's Champion Man

Are we talking red lollipot - twinned at mouth of road and repeaters? Cos those are enforceable as far as I am aware. Or are we talking white rectangle and advisory speed? The road that has the 20mph red lollipops signed correctly and in accordance with law would be enforceable. The others - rule of thumb - 30mph would apply.

But why on earth would they waste money on meaningless, non enforceable speed limit sign? These things are not cheap. Cous' in Lancs got engaged in bit of a ding-donger with the authorities over non-replacement of speed limit signs on 40mph zone - which has forest of scams! They told him they cost ca £650+ each! He went acid over it as this was no excuse - signs did get replaced shortly after his ranting letter!

Road to a golf course in my favourite county . This has made up residential road with marked 30 lollipops at junction with main road (40mph). As you drive down - you get to un-made up bumpy stretch with two 20mph lollipops and repeaters stuck on fencing and the odd lamp post further down the dirt track (and you would have to be complete moron to drive down this faster than unregistered mph as it does not have little pot holes - we are talking deep abyss here - and my Jag is very fussy! But on yesterday's after work golf match -panda patrol car sat here. He could have been snatching 40 winks, checking his maps and duty rosta in fairness -I did not see any "strayed from Dorset" Prolaser 3 or anything remotely threatening being aimed out of the car window - but he could have been doing so at some point in his lazy afternoon there for all I know It was - after all - LanCASH£re!

Did not see bag of doughnuts either

Currently, scameras are not allowed to be used in 20 mph limits. I'm unsure as to whether any 20 zone is actually enforceable, because I've never seen repeaters in them, which would mean that the limit defaults back to 30 mph shortly after passing the entry-to-20-zone sign.

Are you sure? I can't think of an operational Gatso in a 20 limit, but there's a pilot SPECS scheme in 20-limit streets in Gloucester, and isn't the Tower Bridge 20 enforced by SPECS too?

I don't think a 20 "zone" as such is enforceable, as it is meant to be self-enforcing by means of traffic calming measures, and there is no requirement for repeaters within the zone. However, a conventional 20 limit with repeaters is certainly enforceable - although I would imagine you rarely see a Talivan within one as the pickings on dual-carriageways with absurdly low limits are so much richer.

Regards,

Peter

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

A591 - 20mph stretches each side of Ambleside. Not heard of anyone actually being done - yet!

- But one of the talivans has been seen lurking in the NT car parks on the stretch on odd occasions.

And they have also sat in a car park at Grasmere (20mph through village) too.