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with

Do you just film the front of each vehicle?

Do you just film the front of each vehicle?

i

That's a nice post. I really do appreciate you staying around here and exchanging views (while also showing bravery under fire).

But the oversimplified 'speed kills' message can be even more dangerous in residential and 30mph areas than it is out of town.

In town, speeds are lower because hazards are closer. (That's really the only reason if you think about it). When hazards are closer, short periods of distraction are more significant. This is one of the principle reasons that more crashes take place in areas where lower speeds are used.

You might think that drivers at lower speeds have more 'time to react'. But that's really nonsense too. See this page: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/timetoreact.html - Time to react is something that drivers create for themselves by observation, anticipation and planning.

If you can catch nutters at dangerous speeds, then few here would argue with that. But that's REALLY not what's being achieved. In fact the profile of those caught comprehensively fails to match the profile of those involved in excessive speed crashes. See for example: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/wrong.html

Finally, are we succeeding in making you think carefully about the rights, wrongs and side effects of your work?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

cheers

Your comments imply you exceed the limit when driving locally (even though you have been driving for 20 years). So do you think you should get ticketted for 35 in a 30, dual carriageway, bottom of a down hill stretch, sunny day???

You also say:

If you were nicking tailgaiters AT ANY SPEED, undertakers AT ANY SPEED, ignoring double white lines AT ANY SPEED, mobile phone users AT ANY SPEED, etc, etc rather than nicking the poor sod who passes you when the road is empty at 37 in a 30, not knowing or expecting you to be there, you might not be looked upon with such contempt!

It's not all about the exact number on the speedometer, surely to God this is (or should be) about how people drive their cars in its entirety! Your post has already answered why your existance is limp and lame: The bloke comes by at 29 mph, tea in one hand, mobile held up to his ear in the other, steering with his knees, 3/4 of the way across the double white line - no offence recorded. Come past at 37 and the NIP is on its way.

Of course, you will also record the likely nicked or unregistered car going past at 75mph or so, "laying rubber" - but your recordings will be about as much use as a chocolate teapot: This sort of motorist need to be stopped and speken to (and most likely detained) by a copper. Something you can't do?

no i

The point is really that we should be improving the 'tuning' of the wider public, while your work fails to do that. In fact it does much the opposite by giving them misleading messages (stick to the speed limit and you'll be safe, that sort of thing).

Viewed from another perspective, we have remarkably safe roads (by world standards) and policy should be seeking to constantly and gradually improve on our strengths. A little bit better every year is the best we can hope for from drivers.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think that's exactly what worries us most!

Someone who drives to a high standard is going to be able to respond to the increased hazard that cameras generate without compromising their safety too much. But what about the the less skilled or attentive drivers?

Presumably they are the very ones that are the problem in the first place, so what happens to their level of safety when we start distracting them, and wrongly re-adjusting their priorities etc.

I would say that any negative effects that cameras have on "good" drivers will apply many times more to "poor" drivers. In other words, the very drivers we consider to be causing the biggest hazard in the first place are the ones whose driving is worst affected by the use of cameras.

No wonder road safety is going down the pan...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

No they most definately are not and thats part of the problem. Most drivers really don't give the process of driving and the laws relating to what is expected of them, sufficient thought IMHO.
For example, on encountering a camera (van or fixed) or even a police car driving at around the speed limit on a motorway, many seem to go into a state of confused panic and react in all sorts of unpredictable ways. They really haven't a clue what they should be doing, what behaviour is going to get them 'nicked' and thus err on the side of caution with potentially disatrous results.
This isn't the way its supposed to be, but its the way it is.
The publicity relating to 'speeding' concentrates solely on how bad/naughty/hazardous it is to exceed the limit. If there were a 'joined-up' policy in place, then I would have thought that there would be something explaining to drivers how they should go about behaving if they are to comply with the requirement of the enforcement system, what sort of behaviours will attract a ticket and how to avoid it.

[Edit - 2nd time today. Lightning brains JT beat me to it]

Greetings Scamera Operator. My name is Paul F; I come from Planet Earth, I greet you in peace! Which planet do you come from?

Judging from your posts, I wouldn't now even consider myself to be a decent law-abiding citizen. I have always driven my motorcycles and cars at speeds I consider to be appropriate and safe on the public highway, over and above the absolute requirements of the law. To that end, I don't suppose I can consider myself "law-abiding" any more.

But that said, before I pick over the bones in your comments, I will say this: I have never been arrested. I have never stolen someone else's car (or other transport), bought 'bent/hot' goods in pubs, broken into other people's houses, taken drugs, interfered with children or animals, had a drink problem, etc. I don't piss in lifts in blocks of flats, I don't mug old age pensioners nor wilfully engage in any activity which most other 'ordinary' people would consider immoral, inappropriate or otherwise wrong. I even have a TV licence.

I will also add to my credentials by confiding that I've made about half a dozen citizen's arrests (where and when as a bystander - mostly chasing people caught thieving then running from shops I've helped chase and rugby tackled them, etc [at personal risk]; I've rescued a trapped woman from a burning flat - then going back to put out the fire before the fire brigade arrived [at great personal risk], given two different people the kiss of life in the street (both unrelated heart attacks {the 1st unfortunately died en route to hospital - the 2nd didn't}) - so I suppose I've done a few 'good' things in my time, amongst others which I really shouldn't post here, eh?

---------------------------------------------------------

Would I contact the police about such poor driving?? Well FWIW I have at points in the past - I once saw a BMW driven into and through the railings in a road called St Paul's Way... The bloke was obviously drunk (IMHO). He reversed out of the railings and I followed him home. I gave the Police the make & colour, registration number and a description of the driver and where he'd gone within 30 minutes of the 'accident' in person at the police station... "We'll look into it.". They certainly weren't interested then, that's for sure.

But regardless of that event so long ago, would I help now? No. Unless something directly affects or involves me (like my own house being burgled), No, I won't bother 'helping' the police again. I didn't want medals, money or any recognition for what I've done in the past... But I would expect to be treated with respect at all times.

NIPs and letters drafted by power-pissed money orientated, socially inadequate fuck-wits who spout crass crap and drivel, who ultimately only want money from me have spent the goodwill I once had for the machine called the State and all its interfaces. You have already said you would never police a road like Oxford Street looking for the 'odd' speeder amongst the thousands of cars that drive through that road daily. Why Not? No money? Yet nicking that one speeder in Oxford Street really would be removing a source of danger. Because the 85th % is so much lower than the posted 30mph maximum, when the prat comes through at 40mph he desparately needs nicking. But you (or your ilk) are not there because it doesn't make economic sense. Not about safety then? It's about money.

You want me to not 'inadvertently' creep along at 35 in a 30 on a dry, sunny afternoon? (Because I assure you I don't volutarily drive in such a way to nominate myself for a NIP and an endorsement) Why not put one of those flashing at 4 corners signs there? No cash for that, eh? But a camera which will catch people like me who are driving paying attention to the things that matter (like kids and cyclists and other road users) rather than exactly where the pointer is aimed on the speedo. Super! Sixty Quid!!! An easy £60 too. Far easier than collecting the £100 fine from the dole-ite who'd never worked, puches out kids like I punch out lottery tickets (who are never washed and never learn about respecting others either) and who never turn up at court because they've learned that the old fuddy-duddies who run these places can't do much anyway. No, no, no. £60 off of people who have registered their cars in their names and taxed and insured them is a much better cash in hand prospect. Especially when threatened with the full weight of the law. What is it? £1,000 maximum???

The whole thing reeks of squalor. If making me and MILLIONS like me not feel in proper control of our vehicles because we can't look at the speedo and the road at the same time is your aim, then you have done a good job. I'll grant you that. But ultimately you have squandered and wasted the 'natural' respect in me and others for the law, the enforcement of which, is being abused.

As I have said in other threads: Slavery was once legal, as was bear-baiting and deporting people to the furthest extremes of the Earth. But these practices were always certainly repugnant and immoral whether legal or not.

Yep, the boot is on your foot. But you will never convince me that disproportionately forcing me to analyse my speedo - and in the instances this fails, disproportionately punishing me for such failure is good for the country. What utter bollocks!

All you have managed to do with your over-zealous power-pissed unforcement in chasing cash is simply to kill every ounce of goodwill in people like me, the very people people like you and the police need to do their jobs for the benefit of all of us!

Of course, my "lack of volunteering to help" doesn't really matter when someone is alleged to have been eating an apple at the wheel; but when people rape kids, rob banks with guns (and shoot people while doing so), mug OAPs - the lack of a phone call with information could be (and usually is) vital.

Still, until it's your house that's burgled or burned, your family who've been mugged or raped or murdered or KNOCKED OVER BY SOMEONE DEFINATELY OBEYING THE SPEED LIMIT BECAUSE HE WAS LOOKING AT HIS SPEEDO RATHER THAN PAYING ATTENTION, I doubt you'll muster enough respect for my (the other) opinion.

And this is about respect, Scamera Operator. Someone who doesn't use foul language but who smugly stands and recites utter crass crap and nonsence which insults my intelligence. You work for an organisation which 'legally' extorts money from ordinary people. Sure it might not be "theft" in the absolute definition of the word. But your mis-application of speed-limit enforcement simply reminds me of stories from Scicily about the Mafia and protection money.

<< Heavy Italian accent >>

Hey. Hey driver..... Uhhh..... Problem..... Uhhhh..... But we can cure your problem.... Just a minor 'donation'....

<< Heavy Italian accent off >>

If the subject matter wasn't so sick, this would be a great theme for a B movie.

But anyway, moving on:

Eventually, enough of us (ordinary people) will have been 'nicked for nothing' that our collective voices calling on the power pissed gangland masters (sorry, I meant chief police officers and their Scamerati henchmen) and the politicians that we've had enough that something will get done about it.

I fervently hope that the voices are loud enough to be heard before protests similar to the Poll Tax riots of the late 80s come to pass.

And just the same as a spouse can never again truly trust a partner who has been unfaithful, I will still be unable to restore my faith in the law. The law your ilk has abused has been on the statute books for half a century. How long will it be beofre some other clever fuckwit comes along to try and exploit some other loophole.

I'll always be on my guard.

Make hay while the sun shines, Scamera Operator

Once again entirely concur with the above.

However, I'm going to try and add some value to the debate. The theme that keeps re occurring is that it is the standard of driving and not the speed of the driving thats the problem.

We have the same issue with respect to safety in the workplace. Construction has traditionally been far more productive in killing the workforce than building the product.

There have been massive improvements over recent years mainly achieved through rigorous enforcement of rules, hard hats, hi vis, gloves etc etc etc but theres now a plataux not unlike the KSI figures.

Now some of the old gaurd believe that more rules and more enforcement are whats needed but its not working. We are now realising that whilst enforcing behaviour we haven't been changing the culture into a 'safety' culture. If you like we've been concentrating on hands and feet when we should have been focussing on hearts and minds. There are now some enlightened folk out there applying behavoural safety methods and attempting to get the workforce to 'think safe'........and its working ...theres evidence that we're getting through the plataux.

Now contrast this to the whole speed kills approach to road safety. Its the exact opposite. rigorously enforcing rules ...speed limits. The problem is that its doomed to failure.

we've seen the KSI figures rise as a consequence. The problem is unlike wearing a hard hat (which few can dispute is safe) the speed kills message is simply not credible and will therefore never become embedded in the minds of the 'professional' or 'experienced' motorist.

So look at the situation, we need to make roads safer but we're reaching a plataux. we should be training and influencing a safe driving culture but instead we have picked the simplest regulation that can be enforced and gone for it. But its not working so we try some more then more...its not tenable and won't work.

So Camera Operator, its hearts and minds not hands and feet! The trouble is that culture change takes investment enforcing speed limits generates income!

what

I'm glad you're staying, CO. I really would prefer we all stayed civil, irrespective of how bizarre we may find some of the contentions. Attack the contentions for goodness sake not the contenders. Please.

Aaah, but its the next customer who arrives all calm and reasonable who gets the free transfer to the next flight

What gave it away? Was it the part where he saved the life of a person having a heart attack, saved a person from a burning flat, or where he chased and arrested a fleeing burglar?

Or was it the part where he said he tries to drive considerately and actually watch where he is going, instead of the speedo?

CO - While Paul maybe vocal in what he is saying, it's not far off what an awful lot of motorists think in this country. Policing should be done by consent - you don't have the consent to do what your doing. You maybe able to refer to how x% of the country supports speed cameras, but the method to get that poll result is to weight the question. All the question has to be is "Would you support a speed camera at an accident blackspot?" but that neglects where they are really placed which is rarely if ever at an accident blackspot.

If you still believe that the majority of those apposed to speed cameras are just arroagant road slobs(to quote Basingwerk) then take red light cameras. How many peopele are opposed to those? Yet the same priciples that a driver can make better progress by exceeding the speed limit also applies to red light cameras - sneak through on red and you can save yourself a minute or 2. But nobody says how disgraceful red light cameras are because nobody thinks that running reds is safe. However, driving at an appropriate speed for the conditions is safer than driving at an artificially low speed.

As to the issue of 'would I help the police?' - well yes I would without thinking but on one important condition. That is whether it would benefit the public as a whole. If I have a vital piece of information that could nail a burglar/mugger/rapist etc then I wouldn't hesitate to volunteer that infomation. I'd do that not because of my respect for the police(which despite their best efforts to spoil I still have) but becasue I'd feel that I was doing my bit for society by protecting them from a dangerous criminal. At the end of the day the public hasn't done anything to deserve these stupid SCP so they shouldn't suffer because of it.

No, Scumera Operator. Having had the 'treatment' and delight at receiving my very own NIP for simply driving down the road minding my own business (though technically in excess of the speed limit by 5mph); I am motivated by the damage your ilk's antics are wreaking in our society. I am not going to bite on only 'being interested in myself' because if I were, I certainly would not be on here exercising what still is my right - namely my opinion that what you and the vermin you work for do is very, very wrong. I am interested in the breakdown of law and order because people like you who constantly take the law to its extremes bring the whole thing into disrepute.

The proper exercise of power is knowing when to exercise restraint. As my wife said to me, I might as well have been tanking past the camera that did me at 55 rather then 35 - the penalty and the stigma (what stigma??) are identical, after all! Discretion? The problem you have in the robocop department is that you're doing everyone who is travelling anything in excess of the limit no matter what the circumstances. As they say, speeding is an 'absolute' offence. Driving without due care and attention or dangerously actually isn't because it can't be clearly defined. The thing is, Scumera Operator, the entire world in which the vast amount of the population live comes in varieties of analogue grey rather than digital black and white in other words there are 'absolute' offences and 'opinion' offences - but all of driving is done on the opinion of the driver him or herself.

You try to goad me by with the sophistry that my motives are selfish. You're wrong, they're based on the idea that all of us don't take the piss out of each other and try getting along together - and weeding out those who do take the piss and punishing or educating them as appropriate. When the caring by the many for their peers is broken by the antics of people like you (other great examples - the American Stamp legislation in th 1770's), society and the respect for the entire rule of law break down. And I am genuinely worried about it.



"Scrap the Police"?? Au controire! What about using the police (in this instance the traffic police) properly?? What about unmarked police cars with video cameras which don't just record the speed being travelled at? If the police were encouraged to follow and record "Mr Dickhead" over a period of minutes 'tailgaiting', undertaking, driving agressively and riskily, who would then pull the said Mr Dickhead and show him the entire video and ask him for his observations before pressing charges for 'driving inapropriately given the prevailing circumstances' where that video is to be shown in court, I for one would certainly have absolutely no problem whatsoever. Indeed, the police really would be doing all of us a favour. (Remember this site is called "SafeSpeed" it does not call for carte blanche rights to drive at 200 MPH past schools at 8:50 in the morning!!!!!!!!!)

And just for the record, I have never been on any 'demo' in my life, thus far - Although I will certainly be going on any more demos organised to protest about the Scum Partnerships.



Couple of points: You have really got no idea about me with the jibe "serious problem with authority". No mate! I don't have any problem with authority whatsoever where the powers vested in such authority are not abused when exercised. Such is your mistake in mistyping me and the type of individual I am that I can honestly say I don't know what you're talking about when you mention the word "Orgreave" and the midlands; although the miners dispute comes to mind from the year.

Just for you: I have always exercised my franchise ever since I was able. I always voted labour until I was about 30. Then I would say 50/50 with the LD's since. The last election I voted LD, because I can't vote for a government that wants to 'control' and know about everything I do from the cradle to the grave. FWIW, even in my younger "anti-Thatcher" years blindly supporting the Labour party, my political views were about as far away within that party from Scargill and Benn as it could have been.



Thanks for the mis-stereotyping again. I usually never moan at anyone. I understand that mistakes happen in the real world and that having a go at the people who are not responsible (but are such an organisation's "front end") is not coinducive to getting things made better or put right. Easier to try and get along (as outlined above) rather than fight.

But the thing is, Scumera Operator, when the phone line or electric goes down because the weather's been bad I assume no one has gone out of their way to bring such a thing about. "Shit happens" and milk is spilt. The problem with you and your ilk is that you do what you do to fuck people off and legally thieve of off them in a pre-meditated way. Not only that, you've had my plain view on matters because you have come on here and spouted your dross inacurate drivel, bending facts so as to justify your behaviour masquerading behind 'safety' and expect those of your past, present and future clientelle to just say how wonderful it is. Uh uh.

ANd as for your 'advance apologies' to the next driver as you nick him. Please don't come to shed those crocodile tears. Your insincerity simply makes you look like a prat. Your use of the law 'bouncing around' thinking of me while nicking other ordinary people shows you have a power problem there. Tut tut!




We live in an adversarial society, Scumera Operator. Perhaps you'd just like us all to be mute as you filch another easy sixty quid off of us?

Sorry old bean. I feel the call to duty by the actions of the likes of you. I love my country I loved the freedoms you want to erode and I will PEACEFULLY but vociferously voice my concerns. To do otherwise and stand idly by while the country degenerates into anarchy would be a grave dereliction of my duty.

As I said, make hay while the sun shines, because I assure you that if your policy continues to nick everyone indiscriminately as it is at present, all too soon there will be plenty more people waking up to it - just like I have. And when enough of us complain enough, I am sure the powers that be will cancel the gravy train you're on at present. I give it no longer than the next general election.

toodle pip

[slightly off topic]



Read this yet? http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2904 The Lib Dims are at least as much under the control of the anti-car mob as the Labour loonies, not forgetting that the Tories gave us the cameras in the first place as well as the duty escalator. Poor choices.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I think I'd rather you said you concentrated, observed, anticipated and allowed space and time, rahter than observe the lollipops and check the dash. (IG would agree with this! ) Usually find we are about 10% plus 2./3 when we do this at all times - abd we don't miss many lollipops either - but there has been the odd time when we apply rule of thumb.



Fora like these do attract enthusiasts who loathe cameras! It also attracts those copped and seeking some help and we get the odd daft person from time to time.


But people panic at the sight of a camera these days. My wife saw this at first hand when supervising our son in a driving lesson last year. They were on the A6 in Preston and she saw people at or just under the speed limit brake, and look at dash up to approach and then saw them gazing into mirror after passing. Now this was in normal traffic and we regret she did not pick up the video camera to record it - but then she was supervising our son's driving practice at the time. Still - we could always video any behaviour at camera points to demonstrate this behaviour as common place.


"Traffic cops" the other night showed how ineeffective the Gatsos are at copping the wide boys. That twit knew the road and knew the cam's location - obviously since his speed was incredibly legal when passing it and incredibly illegal the rest of the time!



Our problem is that speed cams don't catch the people who commit these offences.



Still focuses on the speed issue! You have to see the driving to judge its absolute danger and it's no use fliming with some super duper long range jobby either as probably prone to error. Also random hit at long range distance too. You would have to see with your own eyes to "form opinion and use the photo evidence to confirm" just the same - surely. Not that I or my wife drive in such a fashion....my wife has clawed people to pieces elsewhere over "Handys" as she calls 'em!

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