Safe Speed Forums

I've had a review of some of my own posts as well as those of others. I can accept I've done a lot of whinging, moaning about and berating the authorities for what appears to be their power-pissed over zealousness in enforcing antiquated speed limits.

I want to put this to one side for this post. Rather than play the devil's advocate or carry on 'sniping' at a still largely indifferent establishment, I'd like to ask others what they think makes their driving safe and whether they think they can improve at all - oh and coming back to the ludicrous speeds permissable, whether other contributors think such slow driving affecths their attention span.

To start the ball rolling:

I started as a cyclist - I still do cycle too, though now only around 300 miles a year (very fair weather and very short distances!). I got on the road as a motor-cyclist when I was 17. I had bikes only until I sat my car test at 21. Although I only periodically used dad's car until I was 23 when I got my own. I rode motorcycles until I was well into my 30s before thinking that the insurance for the miles covered was just way over the top and flogging the last bike around 8 years ago.

Cycling and especially motor-cycling has taught me more about the laws of physics re moving objects on wheels, the effects of weather on road surface adhesion (and braking distances) and vulnerability and driving defensively than I think I could have learned anywhere else.

In my time I have never had an accident at all - but I have 'dropped' a bike a few times on things like man-hole covers in the wet. Riding bikes is probably the reason why I am confident enough in myself to say I am a driver who meets reasonable standards of safety and consideration for others.

In fact, I would go as far to say that I don't think a 'car' licence should be granted to anyone until and unless they have riden a push-bike at the very least and passed some sort of proficiency test if not a motorcycle (I would include 'mopeds' in this category).

Riding a bike has made me aware of others and aware of the vulnerabilities of other road users. What do others think about this question? Or do you rate yourself as 'safe' for some other reason.

And in closing, I must admit that sticking to absurdly slow liimits (not that I ever was a 'racer' before) has made it more difficult for me to concentrate whilst I'm driving. I wonder whether my forced driving at 25mph has made me more likely to have a prang rather than less likely???

I'd rather miss someone at 35mph rather than hit them at 25 through my own inattention!!!

What do others think?

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Although I used to consider myself to be a "reasonable man", the law just sees me as a criminal... My uncontrolled anti-social activities solely include the undeniable fact I usually drive my car at or just below the 85th percentile.

What makes me think I'm safe?

Err full no claims, clean driving license, passed tests in 4 classes of vehicle in 2 countries passed an advanced driving course, nearly finshed me RoSPA one too and do around 1,000 hrs on various machines at work that need full attention always or they bite back.

Still have off days and moments though. Will take more training after Rospa

We can judge our own quality if we (honestly) count incidents, mistakes, surprises and near misses. There are loads more incidents than crashes and loads more crashes than injury crashes.

Every incident is a warning. A small percentage of incidents are unavoidable, but it is a small percentage.

Keep a diary of any near misses, and work hard to figure out what you have to do to prevent it happening again.

If you can get your incidents down to one per five years, by the law of averages you'll probably avoid a crash for a lifetime and avoid an injury crash for ten lifetimes.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Over the years I have completed various advanced driving courses and I am also Home Office approved. Spent several years as a security driver in London and abroad for Politicians and business men and have come to the conclusion that just because you do something a lot doesn't mean your any good at it e.g. Taxi drivers.
Am I any safer? Sure, certainly more than I was when I was younger but still commit some of the most basic and stupid mistakes every now and again.
I have been in vehicles with highly trained professionals yet the 'best driver' I have ever experienced was a distant relative, a retired Watch maker. (To use an annoying American saying-) go figure!
The best advice I have received- "create space around you as this gives you time to deal with 'shit' and always assume that everyone and I do mean everyone is out to kill you".

Picking up on Paul's point, I can clearly remember when I first passed my test I used to experience some sort of "unexpected incident" pretty nearly every journey, ranging from simple "Ooh I didn't expect that!" to "God that was close" etc etc. Indeed I can honestly remember how I used to feel quite smugly that I'd had a "good drive" on the occasions when I reached my destination without any such issues, in other words this was the exception rather than the norm, as it should of course be.

Twenty years on and I find it's not very often that something genuinely takes me by surprise. That, and the fact that I genuinely do strive to improve my driving, and continually analyse what I'm doing and why, leads me to believe that I'm a reasonably good driver.

I don't think sheer accident record is a good enough barometer of driving safety, simply because accidents are (thankfully) pretty rare. I know lots of drivers who's driving scares me to death, yet they believe they are good drivers simply because they haven't crashed in 5/10/20 years. As we've said elsewhere, the process of driving is surprisingly fault tolerant - it usually takes a series of compounding mistakes before a crash happens, so a bad driver can often go a fair length of time between crashes (though they may well have no end of incidents which pass un-noticed, and un-learned from).

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Paul's idea of diarising events is a magnificent one.

These voice recorders are very cheap these days. I think I'll get one and put it in the hole by the handbrake and record events. I know I'm nothing like to Paul's standard. I'd say I have perhaps one to two events per annum that make me brake or swerve at G-forces I'd prefer to avoid, and probably a dozen a year events where I sail past what I decide retrospectively was too fast for the condition if something unforeseen had happened (blind turnings that I'd overlooked where a car (or child) may have egressed etc).

It's certainly a good idea, but it isn't an idea I claim to own!



Blimey mate! Thanks, but I'm crap actually. This is one of those weird things where you can't be any good if you believe you're any good. There's no room for complacency at any standard!

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I meant the "one per five years" you quoted above. not your own personal driving standard. Poor statement on my part I realise - but I have no knowledge of your own capabilities first hand (but I seriously admire your theory and power of deduction).

What makes me think I'm safe? Well - been riding a bike for as long as I can remember - and been driving since age 17. Done all the advanced courses available to me - drive out regularly with IG and his brothers - plus the two European BiBs and a Canadian one in my own family...and you just feel their eyes appraising and assessing

But try to evaluate each drive and have striven to get this across to my eldest son from his first driving lesson.

COAST - learned this from IG and the Swiss relatives....basically Road Craft condensed into one acronym - and it's basically what we try to do when driving.

Have been strict to draconian levels over crossing the road since they were toddlers as well.

Also - cars are checked as routine before we set off in them - and I think because of the past - we simply put safety considerations first and foremost.

But - bottom line - what keeps us safe is being prepared for all numpty behaviour, reacting to it and with it, never being surprised or flustered by it as this is part and parcel of being prepared to continue learning to drive.

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

All that experience !
and I bet you will have a ticket by the end of the year
Thanks to The DRACONION ATTITUDE OF THIS GOVERNMENT

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Brian of Plymouth
When will the government realise , that to err is only human, to be perfect is to be GOD.

Paulnn18,

I realise we have been on opposing sides on another thread of posts on this board but I didn't want to let this go by without a comment (I hope you don't mind)



Absolutely, 100% agree. I know cycling or motorbikes are not for everyone, but a few hundred miles experience open your eyes to the road in a different way.

Andy

It's difficult to be objective about one's own driving abilities.
One can go on about how long one has been driving - and making the same mistakes repetitively, maybe.
I've been driving for 45 years and I'm sure I am still vulnerable to some basic mistakes. However, 3 full and current protected no-claims discounts must mean I'm either lucky or doing something right most of the time.
No current points, but that could change very easily.
JT has ridden with me, so he might like to comment, (or maybe not!)

As a cyclist and more so as a motorcyclist you are aware of your vulnerability in a way that no car driver ever is. Also on a motorbike because of the power to weight ratio things can happen a lot more quickly and if you aren't concentrating 100% all the time - don't ride one!
I don't claim to be accident-free - I twice dropped motorbikes at 20-25 mph on sharp bends and dropped my pushbike a year ago at a similar speed on - you guessed it! - a sharp bend with painful results but no broken bones.
The only recent accident in a car was 2 years ago when I stalled at a junction and got hit up the back. Prior to that the last one was 35 years ago and a bit of a freak - crashed into the back of another vehicle when we both came round a corner to find a fairground lorry at right angles across a main road trying to pull two trailers away from where they were camped out.
I do my best to avoid other drivers' misbehaviour on the road but some of my good fortune must be down to luck as it is for everyone.

Very simply I don’t think I am safe

I think every bugger is out to get me and will do the most stupid things possible and try and take me off my bike.

If I felt safe I wouldn’t be wearing 2k worth of safety gear and armour
If I felt safe I wouldn’t be scanning the road like a tramp looking for dropped fags
If I felt safe I wouldn’t be looking about for every advanced curse I can
If I felt safe I wouldn’t be here on this site looking into the cause of accidents and deaths on the road.


I have been driving for 17 years without an accident at the start it was down to luck then it started to be down to experience but when I moved to a bike as my primary type of transport I decided very quickly I couldn’t rely on luck till I built up the experience so am sorting out all the extra and advanced training I can.

I am I safe?

It is the wrong question if you ask me the question should be “is every body on the roads your using safe” and we sadly know the answer for that question.

I wouldn't ever call myself 'safe'. I drive a hard and heavy lump of metal, I'm a human being and therefore inevitably make mistakes. This is an inherently unsafe situation. I've only been driving for 13 years and haven't yet taken any advanced training. I also appreciate the dangers facing any road user. I've cycled, walked, jogged, ridden horses, mopeds, driven cars, vans, minibuses and spent time with ambulance crews on the road. I've been driven into (not as a driver), seen accidents, had near misses and lost friends on the road.

It is this unsafe state of affairs which makes me want to continually improve as a driver and take my responsibilities very seriously, because you have to expect the worst anytime, anyplace, anywhere. So I try to minimise risk throughout the drive. Personally I find self awareness (-monitoring myself as much as the road) goes a long way towards this. COAST is an excellent set of principles too. Apart from stupidly nudging a car in front of me once at a junction, I've never had an accident and so far have a clean license.

It is this joint aim of taking pride in my own driving and minimising its impact on anyone else which I applaud in any driver. But this is not valued by the speed camera regime. If I received an NIP after some minor not-unsafe misdemeanor I could easily say what's the point? Is this all govt has to say on my efforts? What have I acheived? The cameras have the potential to undo much social goodwill.

My logic is simple as well. If people on the roads I am using make it not safe for me, then I'd either a) like to see them fined (because I like to see my enemies in trouble) or b) forced to slow down (because I’d rather them drive slowly when they are acting unsafe).

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I stole this .sig

What makes me think that I am a safe driver? Well I concentrate very hard on being one - and by that I mean 100% concentration on driving. This is why I think that Speed Kills and the system built around it is so wrong and so dangerous; I am forced to spend time concentrating on something that has absolutely nothing to do with driving safely and consequently cannot put the required amount of attention into the things that do matter.

I have always followed COAST, although I didn't learn it by that name, and still remember the advice given to me by my Dad when I first got my own car: "Always remember that a Car is a Killing machine".

Am I perfect? No. This is because there is always something to learn, and the best way to learn is through experience. In fact I would go as far as saying that a driver that claims to have never had a near miss cannot be a good driver, just an over confident one that is overdue an incident. In fact they probably have near misses all the time, they just don't notice them, or they drive in such an inconsiderate manner that they cause near misses for all the vehicles around them...

Am I to understand you live in a mediaeval conspiracy? What's that like then?

It's bad. We have wastrels roaming the land paying scant regard to the laws and causing injury and death. Attempts have been made by the sheriffs to round them up, but there are too many, and the civilisation and customs that we have been famous for throughout the known world are slipping away like sand.

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I stole this .sig

He's a speeder! BURN THE SPEEDER!!

I understand the Speedfinder Generals are looking into bringing back the ducking stool as they have a lower error rate than the existing system. Something you'd support Baron?