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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 19:06 
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Telegraph Here
Richard Savill wrote:
Speeding couple fined after saying they couldn't remember who was driving
By Richard Savill
Published: 1:51PM GMT 01 Mar 2010
A millionaire entrepreneur and his interior designer wife have been ordered to pay a combined fine of more than £1,000 for failing to identify which of them was driving their speeding Land Rover.
Ian and Jayne Oliphant-Thompson: Speeding couple fined after saying they couldn't remember who was driving
Ian and Jayne Oliphant-Thompson were both prosecuted after they told police it was “immoral” to continue asking who was driving when they could not remember.
Exeter magistrates’ court was told the vehicle was clocked at 40mph in a 30mph zone. Photographic evidence was unable to prove who was behind the wheel and the couple, both 43, were asked to inform police who was driving.

The couple, who wrote a series of letters to safety camera officials saying they were unable to remember, did not attend the court hearing.
In their absence, they were each ordered to pay a £525 fine, £100 costs, and a £15 victim surcharge. They were each also given six penalty points, double the usual number. The usual fine is £60.
Philip Alcock, prosecuting, said: "We cannot be sure who was driving and they have not been able to assist.
“The answer they gave is not uncommon but the owners of a vehicle that is used by many drivers need to have some kind of log.
"Even a married couple, if they habitually use the vehicle and swap around driving responsibilities, they need to have something in place to ensure they know who was driving.”
Mr Alcock said the couple had failed “to satisfy and explain why they are not able to” give an answer. On this occasion, it was because they were not in court, he added.
The couple, who have three children, were clocked a few miles from their home on March 20, last year, and were sent a letter by the Devon and Cornwall Safety Camera Partnership.
Mrs Oliphant-Thompson, the registered owner of the vehicle, wrote several letters in reply to say she did not know which one of the couple had committed the offence.
She wrote: "It might have been me or might have been my husband. We both drive the vehicle and were both driving it on that day.
"We know the driver was one of the two of us although we genuinely cannot make any positive ID. To continue to ask us is erroneous and immoral."
Her husband, whose hobbies include flying helicopters and jets, also gave the same reply when asked in another letter which of them was driving.
Mr Oliphant-Thompson founded his firm, New Futures Group, 18 years ago and reportedly charges more than £5,000 per day for his services.
The multi-million pound business has bases in Devon and London specialising in creating innovative ways of helping organisations of all sizes grow and re-brand.
Mr Oliphant-Thompson, whose past clients include Gap, Virgin, and Royal Bank of Scotland, once described himself as "the most impatient man on earth".
The family live in a gated property in Exton, near Exmouth, where the speeding offence happened.

This is a complete travesty of Justice (will be in Telegraph tomorrow with quote).
It should never be up to any innocent party to balance up the fines and points against who is to be put forward to Court to take the punishment !
It is upon the onerous of the Court and Police to prove who is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.
The High Court when it made the ruling that failing to ID a driver, and the speeding offence was not trying to say that one was as bad as the other !
When telling the truth, that you maybe innocent, can have you end up with a greater fine and points, than lying to a Court by admitting guilt when this is not true, then the justice system is tragically & completely broken. :(

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 19:35 
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How does this square with the "making reasonable efforts to establish who was driving" defence? If you don't know, you don't know.

As for the comment about families keeping a drivers log, what planet is this guy on?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 20:09 
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I suspect they will appeal, and I suspect they will have their conviction overturned. Where else but speed camera clown court can you try, and convict, two people because you know that one of them did it. :o

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 20:18 
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How far will they take the principle??? Imagine some crime committed by a 6 foot man. Perhaps they should arrest all 6 foot males within a given area and prosecute them on the grounds that one of them must have done it. :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 20:53 
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It's like the old trick at school:

"If whoever broke that window doesn't own up then the whole class will get detention!"

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 20:56 
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yep guilty til proven otherwise.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 22:00 
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So in essence: the court knowingly gave (at least) one innocent person 6 points and a £500 fine?
This is a new low!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 22:08 
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Steve wrote:
So in essence: the court knowingly gave (at least) one innocent person 6 points and a £500 fine?
This is a new low!


Potentially ( IMHO) there's a case for both parties to lodge an appeal ,and a compensation claim - after all if the court couldn't decide who was guilty - both should be ( in the eyes of the law ) innocent ,and a miscarriageof Justice has occurred .But let's not forget theae folks have cash- so perhaps next round we might see Mr Loophole involved ( if for no other reasons than a large fee and to restore his reputation) .Pity that we ,the public will again foot the bill .

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 22:31 
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Notes from Idris :
Idris - References wrote:
The right not to incriminate oneself, in particular, presupposes that the prosecution in a criminal case seek to prove their case against the accused without resort to evidence obtained through methods of coercion or oppression in defiance of the will of the accused. In this sense the right is closely linked to the presumption of innocence contained in Article 6(2) of the Convention.

COMMENT In the present context, threats of far higher fines and 6 points not 3 are clealrt corercion or oppression.

. The right not to incriminate oneself is an important right, but not an absolute right, and it is directed (as suggested by the Court in Saunders) to improper compulsion, coercion and oppression likely to result in forced confessions and miscarriages of justice. In the absence of any evidence of compulsion, coercion or oppression, mere invocation of section 172 does not infringe a suspect’s right to a fair trial even where it leads to an admission relied on at a later trial: the admission here was made in response to a single unthreatening question, and although providing the prosecutor with proof of a fact necessary to convict did not of itself involve any admission of criminal

COMMENT
the point here is that the threats in the NIPs, and the real possibility of higher fines and definitely double the points DOES amount to oppression and duress.

Effect has been given to the right not to incriminate oneself in a variety of different ways. The fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States provides that no person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself. The Indian Constitution (article 20(3)) provides that no person accused of any offence shall be compelled to be a witness against himself. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966 provides in article 14(3)(g) that in determination of any criminal charge everyone shall be entitled to certain minimum guarantees, including a right not to be compelled to testify against himself or to confess guilt. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms confers on a person charged with an offence the right not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against himself in respect of that offence (section 11(c)). The New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, in section 25(d), grants to everyone who is charged with an offence, in relation to the determination of the charge, certain minimum rights which include the right not to be compelled to be a witness or to confess guilt. The recently adopted constitution of South Africa grants rights to a suspect on arrest to remain silent and not to be compelled to make any confession or admission that could be used in evidence against him (section 35(1)(a) and (c)) and also a right to a fair trial, which includes rights to remain silent and not to testify during the proceedings and not to be compelled to give self-incriminating evidence (section 35(3)(h) and (j)).
----------------------
(1) Section 172 provides for the putting of a single, simple question. The answer cannot of itself incriminate the suspect, since it is not without more an offence to drive a car. An admission of driving may, of course, as here, provide proof of a fact necessary to convict, but the section does not sanction prolonged questioning about the facts alleged to give rise to criminal offences such as was understandably held to be objectionable in Saunders, and the penalty for declining to answer under the section is moderate and non-custodial.

COMMENT In the real world,. pressure if often - and routinely - brought to bear on those who refuse to identify - repeated correspondence, offers to accept admissions of guilt long after the 28 day time limit has expired, and in at least one case I heard of, a policeman hammering on the door insisting to be allowed in to gain a confession.

---------------------
Section 172(2) does not authorise general questioning by the police to secure a confession of an offence. On the other hand, section 172(2) does, depending on the circumstances, in effect authorise the police officer to invite the owner to make an admission of one element in a driving offence. It would, however, be an abuse of the power under section 172(2) for the police officer to employ improper or overbearing methods of obtaining the information. He may go no further than to ask who the driver was at the given time. If the police officer strays beyond his power under section 172(2) a judge will have ample power at trial to exclude the evidence.

COMMENT - but they do it anyway!
-=----------------------

"The right not to incriminate oneself, in particular, presupposes that the prosecution in a criminal case seek to prove their case against the accused without resort to evidence obtained through methods of coercion or oppression in defiance of the will of the accused. In this sense the right is closely linked to the presumption of innocence contained in Article 6(2) of the Convention."

------------------------------------------
On the other hand there is the question whether the means which it employs are proportionate to that aim and are compatible with the right of the accused to a fair trial. Has a fair balance been achieved? In order to answer this question it is necessary to examine the provision in question more closely. It has several very important characteristics.
First there are the qualifications which are written into section 172(2)(a) itself. The provision may be operated only when it is alleged that an offence has been committed of the kind to which the section applies: section 172(1). Then there is the fact that the requirement in section 172(2)(a) to give information as to the identity of the driver may be addressed only to the person keeping the vehicle. The expression "keeping the vehicle" is not defined, but I take this to be a reference to the person in whose name the vehicle is registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994: see section 172(7) and (9) and the definition of the expression "registered keeper" in section 172(10). A person who submits to registration as the keeper of a motor vehicle must be taken to have accepted responsibility for its use and the corresponding obligation to provide the information when required to do so. Furthermore the requirement for which provision is made is directed to one issue only, the identity of the driver of the vehicle. It is proper to recognise that the identity of the driver is likely to be an important and indeed crucial issue at any trial. But the provision does not permit open-ended questioning of the person keeping the vehicle in order to secure an admission of guilt as to the offence. It seems to me that, bearing in mind the difficulties that may arise in tracing the driver of a vehicle after the event, this limited incursion into the right of silence and the right of the driver who is alleged to have committed an offence not to incriminate himself is proportionate.

---------------------------
Under Scots law the driver’s admission must be corroborated, and there must be other evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that the driver committed the offence with which he is charged. All the usual protections against unreliable evidence and evidence obtained by oppression or other improper means remain in place.

COMMENT - he was dealing with Scots law not English law - English law has not requirement for corroboration, and 100s of penalties are imposed every day with no corroboration whatever

--------------------------------
While the statutory power to require an answer is fortified by a criminal sanction, the penalty is relatively light, not involving imprisonment except in the failure to pay the fine which may be imposed. I consider that the Solicitor-General was correct in submitting that compulsion by itself is not necessarily fatal to the admission of a self-incriminatory admission, but that improper compulsion would be. There is no suggestion in the present case of any improper compulsion. Indeed in the present case it does not appear that any mention was made of the sanction which could be invoked on a failure to provide the information.

COMMENT In all cases these days the threat of severe penalties is explicit or in any case well known, and is not infrequently used to force confessions

-----------------------------
In the present case it is common ground that the respondent was a suspect when she was required to provide information as to the identity of the driver under section 172 and there is no doubt that at common law she could not have been compelled to admit to a police officer that she had been the driver of the car at the time the alleged offence was committed.

---------------------------
. Further, while she was compelled to provide the information required of her under section 172(2)(a), and her failure to comply with that requirement would have meant that she would be guilty of an offence under section 172(3), it has to be borne in mind that the offence is a summary one and that the maximum sentence is a level three fine (at present £1,000), disqualification being discretionary and endorsement obligatory. A custodial sentence cannot be imposed.

COMMENT - But custodial sentences ARE imposed on those who give false information - mamy are in jail now.
----------------------------------------
In Murray v. United Kingdom (1996) 22 E.H.R.R. 29 (at p. 60, para. 45) and in Saunders (at paragraph 68) the court stated that an accused had to be protected against "improper compulsion" by the authorities, examples of improper compulsion being coercion and oppression, in order to contribute to avoiding miscarriages of justice and to securing the aims of Article 6. In the present case there was no suggestion of coercion or oppression

. If there was evidence of coercion, oppression, unfair inducement or other improper compulsion having been used, the evidence of the admission would be rejected.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 22:59 
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How sad it is to see such one sided comments on a forum which prides itself on a balanced and accurate viewpoint.

There is a statutory defence to the charge of fail to name the driver, that of using reasonable diligence to find out. Note that it is reasonable diligence not the more common due diligence. In other words the bar is deliberately set at a low level. The majority of reasonable diligence defences succeed. Int this case the report states that they wrote to the court saying they couldn't remember which does not amount to reasonable diligence. They didn't turn up to the trial thus denying the court, and themselves, the chance to explain what efforts they had made to ID the driver. The prosecutors comment that they were convicted because they failed to turn up suggests to me that he expected them to be found not guilty if they had bothered to turn up.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:01 
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malcolmw wrote:
How does this square with the "making reasonable efforts to establish who was driving" defence?
From the press report they don't seem to have put forward any defence at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:05 
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Steve wrote:
So in essence: the court knowingly gave (at least) one innocent person 6 points and a £500 fine?
No. The RK must have named the other person as a possible driver. Both failed to exercise reasonable diligence to find out which was driving. If they had done so, neither would have been found guilty.

Quote:
This is a new low!
It certainly is. To see such a level of criticism, all of which ignores the facts is indeed a new low.


edited to make (hopefully) clearer.

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Last edited by fisherman on Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:21, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:12 
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Philip Alcock, prosecuting, said wrote:
“The answer they gave is not uncommon but the owners of a vehicle that is used by many drivers need to have some kind of log.
"Even a married couple, if they habitually use the vehicle and swap around driving responsibilities, they need to have something in place to ensure they know who was driving.”




I was thinking that perhaps they each should at least be able to assemble a diary from memory for the day, however I would be pushed to tell you what I did on Monday two weeks ago. I suspect it probably would have helped if they had at least tried to list their movements and any regular journeys they would have expected to make.

If a log was to show that at the time and date no one was using the vehicle then of course they would happily accept that it was a cloned plate on the vehicle that got flashed? ;)

Just seen fisherman's post as I tried to submit this, turning up would have at least shown some effort in proving their case, perhaps they ended up giving the impression it was beneath them.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:16 
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toltec wrote:
II was thinking that perhaps they each should at least be able to assemble a diary from memory for the day, however I would be pushed to tell you what I did on Monday two weeks ago. I suspect it probably would have helped if they had at least tried to list their movements and any regular journeys they would have expected to make.
Reasonable diligence. That is all it takes.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:35 
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fishermans comments have nailed it in my opinion, they failed to attend court, thus offered the court no defence of due diligence.

However, I cannot agree with the point he makes in relation to the court finding them both guilty, clearly one innocent party was knowingly punished by the court, this goes against the very foundation of the law of this land.

However, two wrongs never make a right, the couple should have attended, and they would almost certainly have had the case dismissed.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:45 
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I must say, Fisherman, I was a little surprised to see your post! OK, I'm always wary of newspaper reports and maybe there's a bit more to this than meets the eye. I also accept that not turning up for the hearing was perhaps, a bad move AND I (up to a point) accept that they MIGHT not have made "reasonable" efforts to identify the driver.

HOWEVER, the fact remains that two people have been convicted of (speeding?) and had twice the usual number of points applied to their licences for a crime which only ONE of them could possibly have committed! That's simply not fair! If there was a separate "crime" of not identifying the driver, then perhaps they could reasonably be convicted of that, but this is just petty vengance. It's not even as if the magnitude of the crime would normally have justified the 6 points for either of them! Perhaps they could even have been prosecuted for something else - failing to turn up in court, or something (contempt)? I'm no lawyer, but this just smacks of the kind of mentality that we used to hear about in POW concentration camps - "oh we don't know who's done it so we'll just execute a few at random to teach the others a lesson".


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 00:23 
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Mole wrote:
HOWEVER, the fact remains that two people have been convicted of (speeding?) and had twice the usual number of points applied to their licences for a crime which only ONE of them could possibly have committed!


No. As fisherman so lucidly explained, they were punished for failing to exercise reasonable diligence to find out who was driving. Both individually committed that crime and both were punished for it. And whichever one was driving escaped punishment for speeding.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 00:44 
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Actually, the one who was driving received a points-penalty double that which he/she would have received for speeding and a fine/costs also much higher.
You know the really funny bit ?
After all their palaver that they wrote about neither could remember who was driving, they couldn't suddenly state that one was driving....that may have been construed as conspiracy...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 01:05 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
they were punished for failing to exercise reasonable diligence to find out who was driving. Both individually committed that crime...

Sorry... what... that's a "crime", even for the non-offender?


fisherman wrote:
Steve wrote:
So in essence: the court knowingly gave (at least) one innocent person 6 points and a £500 fine?
No. The RK must have named the other person as a possible driver. Both failed to exercise reasonable diligence to find out which was driving. If they had done so, neither would have been found guilty.

IMO, the answer was actually yes, even though both supposedly failed to give due diligence, but why should the innocent party have to keep such a track of their activities? Even that wouldn't really matter if the other party didn't keep track (still can't know who was driving).

So not only is the right to silence been taken away (from the motorist only?) but it seems failure to keep a log of all journeys can see one's self on the end a penalty greater than that for the offence itself even though one didn't commit it?
Who keeps a log? It is reasonable to not keep a log? What is reasonable/due diligence when one hadn't kept a log? Whatever the answer, should the dealing SCP have pointed this out to them as soon as they received the returned NIP?

Furthermore, I'm strongly under the impression that the penalty for failure to name should have been similar to that for the original offence. 12 points against 3?!?

Yes they failed to attend court, in which case I would expect - at most - whatever the original penalty to be shared out, or failing that going only to the RK (either of which I could have accepted), not double the penalty shared out to both.

When a motorist tries it on with the law, the motorist is at risk of a greater penalty (including custody); but this doesn't seem to apply the other way around. The law can try it on with the motorist without any accountability - and I reckon that's what happened here (attempting to set precedent, inevitably to be followed by 'mission creep').

I don't doubt what you say is technically correct in law Fisherman, but morally I feel it is so wrong - that's why I feel justified to continue to say it IS a new low!


Edited to add: I'm surprised opinions on this are so polarised, evenly too. This could make for a good thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 01:44 
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The press report said the photos did not show who was driving. So to me if neither of them can actually remember and the photos don't show who was then how can either of them be convicted? There are endless police shows which mention joyriders avoiding any penalty as it couldn't be proved who was driving. Surely this couple should have the same rights in law as the joyrider that just keeps stum knowing that it is a hard job to prove who was driving unless they are properly identified at the time?

If one of them gives in and says it was them and wasn't sure then isn't that grounds for them committing perjury? Their only honest answer is they don't know and it could have been either of them and that it should be up to the prosecution to prove it was one or the other. If they use their vehicle a lot and change drivers regularly then they are unlikely to remember that particular day. Innocent people shouldn't need to keep track of their alibis constantly.

If conviction relies on a confession then it isn't very safe is it? There needs to be some other proof.

For them not to turn up to court was incredibly dumb though.

I think it is the thin end of the wedge frankly. The fundamental problem with automated enforcement is that it doesn't really offer strong proof about the identity of the driver at the time of the offence. All it offers is that a vehicle with a certain number plate and of a certain type set off the camera. The system just relies on people paying up rather than exposing the flaws in the concept. If you wanted to be malicious you could easily follow someone in an identical car a few minutes after them and set off the camera. They'd have a devil of a job proving it wasn't them.


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