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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 19:33 
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Big Tone wrote:
Mind Driver wrote:
There is nights I could have 6 beers and feel grand to drive (never have though), other nights in half a beer has me wrecked
Same here. I got my best time ever on my friend’s TOCA game after three beers. Not quite the same thing, obviously, but nevertheless it’s still requires excellent hand-to-eye co-ordination and reaction time etc. to get a record time.

I’m not trying to make a case for D&D, far from, but if the question is “how do we make our roads safer?” then the answer is surely to address the cause instead of papering over the fault and above all be honest about what is dangerous.
I don't want to make a case for drinking & driving either, because there will always be those idiots whose chief method of determining what's right and wrong is to check with guilt and shame. Such induhviduals would probably not have a problem driving while hammered, except for fear of imprisonment and fines, having their names and photos published in the newspaper, and being forced to attend 'attitude adjustment' classes.

My problem with drunk driving, is that I don't feel like I can drive the car while drunk.
By drive the car, I mean very well, to include the ability to respond properly to the unexpected.
By drunk, I mean the state of mind in which I would indicate interest in a woman exceeding size 12, or eleven stone, depending on height.

The reason why drunk driving is illegal, is because statistically, it makes most people, even those who can otherwise drive reasonably well, drive unacceptably under its influence. To make our roads safer, we have to positively affect the thought processes of all potential road users, so that they make better judgments than they are making now, preferably prior to being caught while hurting anyone, or damaging anything.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


Last edited by The Rush on Thu Jul 09, 2009 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 19:45 
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But you know what Rush, there's something I just don't get which happens in most other walks of life but not driving...

You know how in science we look at what does or doesn't work and borrow from it to make human life better? Why has that never been done with driving I wonder?

In nature, we will look at the habits of insects and mammals and see what makes for a sucessful society by looking at was is or isn't working and their habits etc. In human life, they look at our world and see after much research that the sun is damaging to our skin and tell us we should cover up or use sun screen. They look at Eastern and Western diets and see the food we eat makes us more or less vulnerable to cancer and advise us on what's good to eat and what's not.

So why don't 'they' collect evidence by looking at drivers from all walks of life: Your age, do you drink, your gender, have you ever had an accident? etc. etc. Just like a study you would do in science and collate the facts and base the governing of our roads on empirical evidence and scientific analyisis? I'm sure thay would find that: -

A driver can be over the drink limit, (or have had a drink but still be under the limit), and be safer than someone who is tea-total.

A young driver is more at risk than a mature driver. (Insurance companies have got that far, but not Government).

A driver can exceed the speed limit without being a danger to himself or anyone else. (Again, insurance companies have got that far but not Government)

Why not look at drivers habits, take accurate records and analyse the evidence from the broadest cross section of drivers and then base the 'road rules' or punishment on your findings to create a fairer and better society?

I'm sure it comes down to greed. I'm equally sure it does not come down to road safety and protecting the masses, but there again if they don't protect drivers they can't screw them to boost revenue. Speeding is a very convinient way of making money off the backs of millions of safe drivers who have never had an accident or are the lowest risk in the eyes of insurance companies and are no threat on the roads.

I'm one of them but I'm sure my turn will come soon enough...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 20:58 
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Big Tone wrote:
But you know what Rush, there's something I just don't get which happens in most other walks of life but not driving...
May I start by saying that my evidence suggests that the vast majority of women and a slight majority of men are more likely to get into some sort of car accident costing more than a thousand dollars, than to get into some sort of 'fight'?

So why are there more martial arts schools than driving schools?
Quote:
You know how in science we look at what does or doesn't work and borrow from it to make human life better? Why has that never been done with driving I wonder?

In nature, we will look at the habits of insects and mammals and see what makes for a successful society by looking at was is or isn't working and their habits etc. In human life, they look at our world and see after much research that the sun is damaging to our skin and tell us we should cover up or use sun screen. They look at Eastern and Western diets and see the food we eat makes us more or less vulnerable to cancer and advise us on what's good to eat and what's not.
Since we are the only animal that prefers to prey upon itself, and also the only animal that willingly cooperates in its own victimization, you have to remember things like:

Sunscreen is much more expensive than clothing, has a much greater potential for toxic side effects, and is much less permanent a barrier, yet it's still a growth industry (No matter how much sunscreen she uses, she'll look better at 50 if she avoids the sun, than if she uses sunscreen as an excuse to spend more time in the sun.)

Much of the advice on what's good or bad for you (or someone else) comes from someone trying to hawk a product for profit while telling you what you think you need to hear to convince you of what they say is good or bad for you. (I generally abstain from any artificial food product, or food item subjected to unusual artificial processes.)

Quote:
So why don't 'they' collect evidence by looking at drivers from all walks of life: Your age, do you drink, your gender, have you ever had an accident? etc. etc. Just like a study you would do in science and collate the facts and base the governing of our roads on empirical evidence and scientific analysis? I'm sure they would find that:

A driver can be over the drink limit, (or have had a drink but still be under the limit), and be safer than someone who is tea-total.

A young driver is more at risk than a mature driver. (Insurance companies have got that far, but not Government).

A driver can exceed the speed limit without being a danger to himself or anyone else. (Again, insurance companies have got that far but not Government)

Why not look at drivers habits, take accurate records and analyse the evidence from the broadest cross section of drivers and then base the 'road rules' or punishment on your findings to create a fairer and better society?

I'm sure it comes down to greed. I'm equally sure it does not come down to road safety and protecting the masses, but there again if they don't protect drivers they can't screw them to boost revenue. Speeding is a very convenient way of making money off the backs of millions of safe drivers who have never had an accident or are the lowest risk in the eyes of insurance companies and are no threat on the roads.

I'm one of them but I'm sure my turn will come soon enough...
On the surface, the key differences between individuals and governments lie in their perspectives. For our purposes, I'll stick with:

Governments see people as recurring variations on recurring and unifying themes, thus anomalies such as people who can't drive unless they are drunk, or people who seek significant amounts of kinaesthetic stimulation rates, are routinely discriminated against because such people will never form a critical political mass (Dare you imagine a nation not only populated, but governed entirely by extreme athletes, neo-Spartans, and other physical artists?)

I may never die or be maimed in a car accident, but does anyone know of a nation (or government body of any size) that isn't basically counting down the days til someone becomes a KSI in an automotive collision, and never needs more than five fingers? To most governments, death by car is a certainty.

I suspect that, as end users, we are hardwired to prefer the preventive approach, whereas governments tend toward a mitigatory approach.

Once it becomes obvious that a preventive approach could be too successful from a profit standpoint, the mitigatory approach - as well as the appearance of it - yields profits which could be spent in a myriad other ways, depending on the nature of the spenders.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 21:29 
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Big Tone wrote:
Just like a study you would do in science and collate the facts and base the governing of our roads on empirical evidence and scientific analysis? I'm sure they would find that:

A driver can be over the drink limit, (or have had a drink but still be under the limit), and be safer than someone who is tea-total.
Why?
What does this mildly inebriated driver possess, that allows him/her to mitigate or cancel the effects of one or two drinks on his driving? Is that what the teetotaler lacks?

If the only thing that mildly inebriated driver possesses is experience, then it's all back to education/training/testing.

What if it's something else?

Quote:
A young driver is more at risk than a mature driver. (Insurance companies have got that far, but not Government).
What does the more mature driver possess that the younger one lacks? Again, usually, the answer is experience, but what about when it isn't?

Quote:
A driver can exceed the speed limit without being a danger to himself or anyone else. (Again, insurance companies have got that far but not Government)
Again, the ones that tend to be able to do so well, have more [positive] experience than those that don't. How can education/training/testing be recalibrated to make it easier to learn from experience?

Quote:
Why not look at drivers habits, take accurate records and analyse the evidence from the broadest cross section of drivers and then base the 'road rules' or punishment on your findings to create a fairer and better society?
Because so many of the things good drivers possess cannot be immediately detected and measured. It's so much easier to measure things like speed, or BAC. I'm the first to concur that those things are set greedily, so I guess the answer to your question, is that society is not fair.

We prefer snap judgments based on perfunctory analyses of the most easily measured proxies. Rather than statistical outliers being exceptions that test the rules, we pretend that they don't exist, or 'something is wrong with them', or 'we have nothing to learn from them', so that they can be ignored when the rules for things like speed limits and BAC are set.

Then see how far downward we can adjust those limits for greater profits. Stop before traffic comes to a standstill, or the alcohol industry is destroyed, or the citizens storm the castle.
(When I say we, I certainly don't mean the vast majority of the members of this forum.)

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 23:38 
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Big Tone wrote:
I got my best time ever on my friend’s TOCA game after three beers. Not quite the same thing, obviously, but nevertheless it’s still requires excellent hand-to-eye co-ordination and reaction time etc. to get a record time.



And alcohol helps with reducing fear, hence you take more risks, a prime reason why you shouldn't be driving a real car when you're a bit tipsy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 06:31 
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weepej wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
I got my best time ever on my friend’s TOCA game after three beers. Not quite the same thing, obviously, but nevertheless it’s still requires excellent hand-to-eye co-ordination and reaction time etc. to get a record time.



And alcohol helps with reducing fear, hence you take more risks, a prime reason why you shouldn't be driving a real car when you're a bit tipsy.


Au contraire. Being a bit tipsy makes you extremely anxious not to attract the attention of the police so you drive very carefully and make sure that you don't make the slightest infringement of the RTA. For example I often don't bother with a seat belt when making short trips in the village but I certainly do when driving back from the pub, however little i have drunk. And I always check all the lights

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 21:51 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
weepej wrote:
Alcohol helps with reducing fear, hence you take more risks, a prime reason why you shouldn't be driving a real car when you're a bit tipsy.

Au contraire. Being a bit tipsy makes you extremely anxious not to attract the attention of the police so you drive very carefully and make sure that you don't make the slightest infringement of the RTA. For example I often don't bother with a seat belt when making short trips in the village but I certainly do when driving back from the pub, however little i have drunk. And I always check all the lights.

Tom Vanderbilt, Author of Traffic: Why we Drive the Way We Do (and what it says about us), wrote:
Determining crash risk based on a person's BAC depends, of course, on the person.
A famous study in Grand Rapids, Michigan in the '60s (one that would help establish the legal BAC limits in many countries), which pulled over drivers at random, found that drivers who had a .01 to .04 percent BAC level actually had fewer crashes than drivers with a BAC of zero.
The so-called 'Grand Rapids Dip' led to the controversial speculation that drivers who'd had 'just a few' were more aware of the risks of driving, or of getting pulled over, and so drove more safely. Others argued that regular drinkers were more capable of 'handling' a small mistake.

The Grand Rapids dip has shown up in other studies, but it has been downplayed as another statistical fallacy - the 'zero BAC group' in Michigan, for example, had more younger and older drivers, who are statistically less safe.
Even critics of the study noted that people who reported drinking with greater frequency had safer driving records than their teetotaler counterparts at every level of BAC, including zero.
This does not mean that drinkers are better drivers per se, or that having a beer makes you a better driver. But the question of what makes a person a safe driver is more complicated than the mere absence of alcohol. As Leonard Evans notes, the effects of alcohol on driver performance are well known, but the effects of alcohol on driver behavior are not empirically predictable.
Quote:
Here is where the tangled paths of the cautious driver who has had a few while carefully obeying the speed limit, and the distracted sober driver blazing over the limit while talking on the phone, intersect. Neither may be driving as well as they think they are, and one's poorer reflexes may be mirrored by the other's slower time to notice a hazard.
The 'first' driver, who seems to be experienced at driving while mildly inebriated, has his mind on the task, is trying to give himself extra thinking and reaction time, in case 'the unexpected' happens.
Meanwhile, the distracted driver blazing over the limit while talking on the phone, may not have any alcohol in his system, but he isn't really sober, either.

I'm operating on the assumption that the 'cautious driver plus a few beers' is at least ten years older than the 'distracted speeder-phoner', who probably isn't older than twenty-five; shadowing the Grand Rapids dip. The former is balancing risk factors, the latter is piling them on.

We already know for whom these studies are either irrelevant, or to be flat-out denied ...

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 06:52 
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The Rush wrote:
The 'first' driver, who seems to be experienced at driving while mildly inebriated,


Don't get me wrong. By "a bit tipsy" I mean at the legal limit or just over. I certainly won't drive if I am more inebriated than that. Unfortunately the police in this country are allowed to use the fact that you are driving cautiously and remaining below the speed limit as a justification for stopping and breathalysing you.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 01:29 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
The Rush wrote:
The 'first' driver, who seems to be experienced at driving while mildly inebriated,

Don't get me wrong. By "a bit tipsy" I mean at the legal limit or just over. I certainly won't drive if I am more inebriated than that.
I'm sure that's what you meant. I'm also certain that's what the founder of MADD, Candace LIghtner meant, when she expressed discomfort at the lowering of the legal limit from .10 to .08.
Like I've said before, I won't drive with more than two drinks in me. The only way I would, is if surprises were guaranteed to be removed from the drive home. Since that's not possible, it's two drinks, no more.
Quote:
Unfortunately the police in this country are allowed to use the fact that you are driving cautiously and remaining below the speed limit as a justification for stopping and breathalysing you.
Are you just trying to make me nervous, or did Big Brother win the last election again?

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 07:26 
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Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately the police in this country are allowed to use the fact that you are driving cautiously and remaining below the speed limit as a justification for stopping and breathalysing you.


Are you just trying to make me nervous, or did Big Brother win the last election again?


BB has won every election in my life time and I carry a bus pass :(

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 08:38 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
...and I carry a bus pass :(

I’d rather crawl naked over broken glass with my arse on fire than use a bus. Pot-smoking, filthy, loud, foul stenchin’, unreliable, expensive… And that’s just the good points :x

The last time I used one I was in a hurry and saw the number 11 was coming my way so rather than power-walk and arrive sweaty I thought I’d get what they call a short hop. £1.70 to go a few hundred yards! :furious:

I haven’t done the calculations but that has to be some kind of record for the most expensive means of transport per distance travelled I have ever used!

I guess it's a good incentive not to drink and drive and lose your licence. There again, it's a good incentive to drink and drive if buses are the alternative.

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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