Safe Speed Forums

While you ponder on Steve's points perhaps you can answer a quickie for me weepej. Serious question...

I don’t know if you have ever been abroad, but let’s say you are in France on a dry day. Do you travel at the legal 85mph, like everyone else, or do you never go more than 70mph because that is our definition of a safe maximum limit for exactly the same type of road?

Indeed, have you ever done 70mph or do you always stay in the inside lane on our motorways at 55mph where you feel safer?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

[pedant mode]
130 kph = 80.78mph
[/pedant mode

Since speed kills 4.22 mph is very important

Ah yes, I meant an indicated 85 of course I may as well continue since I'm sure weepej can see where I'm going with this...

If he has ever done 70mph, (maybe he once hit 69 in lane 2 of the M1), then by his own definition or judgement that would make him a maniac on American highways where there is a 55mph limit in force

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Interestingly, in the light of the direction this topis is taking, I noticed this a few minutes ago:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090625/tu ... 23e80.html

In particular:

"...The foundation added that a 27-mile stretch of single carriageway on the A40 between Carmarthen and Llandovery in Wales was Britain's most improved road. The previous level of 54 fatal and serious collisions had been cut by more than 80% to 10 by introducing measures such as resurfacing...."

...Although according the Weepej, there's no such thing as a dangerous road - just roads that haven't (as yet!) had their speed limits made low enough!

Unfortunately, much as I'd like to have my cake and eat it,I fear that what they might have actually "discovered" is largely what we would call "RTTM"! Earlier in the article it implies that this is over a 1 year peiod.

Oh and while I'm on, don't know if Greenshed is still lurking, but if you are, Greenshed, here's ANOTHER example (the second in as many weeks that has made it into the public domain) of how you can improve occupant protection without making cars bigger.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoe ... saver.html

I don’t want to topic drift but to go back to making roads safer, by sheer coincidence I went out with my friend on the motorbikes yesterday, (girlfriend on back of my bike, my sister on back of my friend’s bike), and to my horror they were involved in an accident

I left A&E at 2:00 a.m. last night where my sister was found to have a badly broken arm, the radius, which will require a plate under general anaesthetic and lots of rehab etc.). If the road was made safer they would both have come away unscathed, but maybe making roads safer should be a separate topic since there are many unanswered questions still left on this thread. Maybe he/they intend not to answer them of course. It must be hard defending the irrational and illogical...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

It's suprising how many roads have slippery surfaces when wet, even at low speeds. There's an island near me where, when wet even 20MPH can be tricky but no -ne seems to want to resurface it, even though when I got an accident breakdown for the road, (it's the one where they want to drop it from NSL to 40MPH) it shows several accidents due to skidding on that roundabout....it would be cheaper and better for all just to resurface it but councils don't think logically....dropping the limit to 40MPH won't stop those accidents but it will enhance someones bonus no doubt.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

A lot of this is to do with the way politicians and officials are perceived in the modern ideology-free world of the "political class". It is easier and cheaper to spin that "something is being done" by messing around with speed limits and speed enforcement than to fix problems and engineering shortcomings with our roads. Sadly this sort of cynicism has infected most aspects of public life nowadays...

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

[Speed kills mode] But that would assume that UK roads were the same as US roads, which of course they can't be, otherwise the Montana Paradox would apply equally over here....[/Speed kills mode]

Personally I think we should leave motorways out of this.

They are designed specifically to allow cars to travel at high speeds, there are no pedestrians on them (but you shouldn't drive assuming this), no t junctions, no sharp corners.

Now, I sense that what a lot of people would like if for ALL roads to be designed to motorway standards.

I wouldn't want to live in a place like that; have you ever been to LA?

Can we agree to use a different phrase then.

How can road be dangerous? It's an inaminate piece of tarmac, Left alone it will sit there and harm nobody, no matter how twisty and turny it is.

Straightening out a curvy road doesn't make it safer.

And if everybody was careful enough there would be no crashes, comings off or smashes into trees.

It's not the road that's dangerous, it's the people that use it dangerously.

But its amazing how changing the ROAD can sometimes make the PEOPLE less dangerous isn't it?

How would you have responded to the Titanic tragedy? Put less people on the ship or more lifeboats? Make it go slower or invent radar?

You can reduce speed limits until cars become (effectively) useless OR you can try to solve the problems in other ways and keep the advantages that the motor car gives.

I don't think it does.

If somebody is going to take a max 30mph corner on an NSL at 60 and come off, how else are they driving?

But it does prove a very good point doesn't it: roads can be engineered to be a lot safer, even with their high speeds. Why can't the same principles (no concealed entrances, rises of road surfaces, muddy runoffs, pinchpoints etc) be applied to other roads too?


Sensing the need to halt a potential strawman: I doubt many people would like to have motorway speed traffic passing through their residential streets.

Engineering roads to remove nasty hidden surprises would be great for any road, even urban roads (if only for the better sightlines), of course we always have to cater for non-drivers who need to travel too. We can have safer driving and interaction without the segregation other countries suffer from.


Roads can be dangerous by having hidden or otherwise unobvious hazards (no concealed entrances, rises of road surfaces, muddy runoffs, pinchpoints etc). I did say this to you just a few posts ago; so why did you quote me without addressing the pertinent question contained within?


Make up your mind!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Likely badly, but removing that corner would eliminate the forces that make them slide off - yes? (which I believe was Mole's point).

What if that road was oily or icy, would taking that bend at 30 be safe? Would it be safer without that bend - even with that oil/ice?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

If you can say that without any evidence, I reply by saying yes it does!

Or I could refer you to Leeming, who specifically discusses the positive effects ironing out blackspots (you know: corners, stuff like that) had on accident rates on his patch.

One could also question why a European survey has just announced 50% of the UK's A-roads are unsafe. If it's all down to the driver (just can't see you thinking that, weeps ) did they just pick the road numbers out of a hat? Or maybe, just maybe, some roads are safer than others!

Can I ask you a straightforward question and just this once get a straight answer:

In terms of KSI per vehicle mile, do you think the A1 in its current form is a safer road than it would be if it had not been improved at all since the Second World War?

This thread, and weepej stamping his feet and refusing to see the blindingly obvious has reminded me of a converstation I once had with a pro speed kills personage not so long ago. It goes along these lines:

speed kills nutter: Speed is always to blame, without speed there wouldn't be an accident.
me: So why is poor road design higher in representation in the accident stats?
speed kills nutter: Ah but if people weren't speeding the road wouldn't be dangerous would it?
me: If the danger were engineered out the danger would no longer exist, so surely that's good, because less people would die.
speed kills nutter: Ah but they would be going faster, and speed kills.
me: (In exasperation) OK so picture this scenario, I design a roller coaster, to make it more exciting, I place razor sharp blades at the average adult neck height. To make the ride more exciting the riders have to duck. The ride goes live and all of the riders on it die, should we a) remove the blades, or b) slow the ride down to a speed where the blades won't cut off the riders heads.
speed kills nutter: That's not representative, tarmac can't be dangerous it is always speed that is to blame!

At this point I went off to find a brick wall to smack my head into as it would have been less painfull than talking to the next britains got no talent contest.

You have been shown 2 examples where the road has been made considerably safer and faster by doing just that, so either you are deliberatley avoiding the issue or you are incredibly dense, which is it?

No, we've been shown two examples where the situation is made less complex and therefore easier to handle.

I'm all for that to a degree, but :

1. I don't want to see our country covered in perfectly straight roads
2. I don't think we should be excusing bad driving

1) Neither do I, but those who are arguing this wholly on the grounds of safety must accept this is a solution which must be applied where possible.
2) Neither do I, but not all accidents are a result of bad driving; so what do we do about the remainder which aren't?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign