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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 00:14 
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http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-w ... -23793867/

Brunstrom says too much spent on speed cameras in North Wales

Jun 5 2009 by Tom Bodden, Daily Post

TOP cop Richard Brunstrom admitted too much time and energy was invested in speed cameras – instead of getting cops to tackle bad driving face-to-face.

The North Wales chief constable – once labelled the Mad Mullah of the traffic Taliban for his hardline speed camera policies – wants to give new powers to officers to slap on-the-spot fines on careless drivers.

He said officers weren’t challenging poor drivers enough because of the bureaucracy in the courts system.

He told an Assembly inquiry into casualty reduction he aims to target bad drivers in a crusade to make Welsh roads the safest in the world.

He said police will adopt a fresh approach to offences of careless driving not involving a collision.

And he called on the Assembly to back tougher targets for accident and casualty reduction in Wales.

“We aren’t challenging bad driving anywhere near as much as we should and we get rightly criticised for that,” Mr Brunstrom said. He conceded: “We’ve invested, I think, too much time and energy in robot cameras and not enough time in human interaction on the road when we find driving to a standard below that which is acceptable.”

He said traffic cops could use a more constructive approach in dealing with motorists.

Instead of a court summons, officers will use their discretion, including the option of a new fixed penalty ticket.

Firm enforcement will still apply in instances of dangerous, irresponsible driving, he said.

A combination of fixed penalties and driver re-education courses could be adopted, he suggested as a ‘constructive intervention rather than being flashed by one of those damn cameras’.

Welsh police supported separate targets for Wales and a 40% reduction both in deaths and serious injuries by 2020 compared to the 2004-08 average, rather than the 33% cut aimed for by the Department of Transport.

Casualty reduction among young people should be at least a 50% with the same figure applied to pedestrians and cyclists. He highlighted the ‘selfish, irresponsible high risk motorists who drive their vehicles with little or no regard for the welfare or safety of others, especially on rural roads’.

“The biggest single problem is men under 25 but there is a growing problem among professional women caught for speeding or dangerous driving.

“It has, for far too long, been too socially acceptable to be killed or injured in a road collision.

“Wales now has a once in a decade opportunity to set out its intentions.”


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:26 
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Very good to see him recognising the failings of his previous policy.

I'm not at all happy with the idea of fixed penalties for careless driving, though. It is not an objective, black-and-white offence like speeding and surely any allegation by a police officer needs to be tested by the courts.

I can see this ending up with generally responsible drivers getting tickets for trivial infractions, because they are easy to catch, while the genuinely dangerous remain unscathed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 19:09 
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the-gog wrote:
A combination of fixed penalties and driver re-education courses could be adopted, he suggested as a ‘constructive intervention rather than being flashed by one of those damn cameras’.


Cash, cash and more cash. He wants a position at ACPO; they are the ones that run the system indicating who has been on which training courses and charging the police forces for the look ups.

Edited to add
Ah, I see he has got a position with ACPO on another thread.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 20:58 
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I will ask him again


PUT well trained und seriously minded police out there. You get respect that way Mr B.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 23:24 
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Blimey! If that's true, it's one hell of a turnaround! Not before time, I might add, and I'm a little disappointed that it didn't seeem to say that he'd be taking any cameras down, but definitely encouraging!

I think we need to be VERY CAREFUL with what we say now! OK, I might be flattering myself (ourselves???) a little by thinking that he might lurk on here and as a result, have seen the error of his ways...

BUT...

...any credibility we might have WILL BE LOST if we don't sieze this opportunity to (very publicly) welcome the decision to return to more traditional methods of policing and allow trained trafpol to use their discretion! That is, I think, what the official SafeSpeed position has been, to a great extent?

I agree with PeterE up to a point, but if all we ever dish out is "stick" rather than "carrot" we won't get taken seriously! We'll jus tbe regarded as a bunch of malcontents for whom nothing will ever be enough!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:05 
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I think a welcome move.

Most officers do make wise professional judgements according to the standard of driving in the set circumstances of the tug.


Like all new initiatives - and to reassure the public - there will have to be some extra training to make sure that each officer has the professional nous to make these decisions wisely and fairly. After all - this will mean a rebuild of/reinvestment in many a RPU :wink: for some.

Overall - a good three point turn - but he's not getting rid of cameras - just realising that his police officers actually do the job better :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 13:35 
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In Gear wrote:
I think a welcome move.

Most officers do make wise professional judgements according to the standard of driving in the set circumstances of the tug.


Yes, but the problem is, what are these mythical people known as "police officers"? They're an endangered species on the road these days in mid and north Wales, though I occasionally hear of the odd sighting of them from my friends.

Powys doesn't have any fixed speed cameras as far as I'm aware, and the various parts of north Wales I get to visit don't have any I don't think. Plenty, plenty of speed camera vans around the place, and they are much more numerous than traf pol on the roads, sadly. And the standard of driving is decreasing sharply. But these dangerous drivers all drive well within the speed limit so no camera will ever catch them and they continue along blissfully unaware of the accidents they've nearly caused.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 15:34 
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He is saying this because they don't make enough money from speed cameras any more, right?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 01:31 
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I'm sure that, around the various partnerships - not just in North Wales, this might have the effect of "focussing the attention" on the efficacy of cameras!!! :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:29 
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Somehow this volte face has dimished my respect for the man even further.

Idiot


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:14 
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That seems a bit harsh! OK, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I have to say that if anything, I have MORE respect for someone who can so publicly stand up and admit they got it wrong! OK, we have to be careful reading more into this than there actually is (actions will speak louder than words etc) but if he really HAS "seen the light" and he really IS admiting that they'd got it wrong, then fair play to him, I say!

I think in a wider context, we do this to politicans and all sorts of people in the public eye a bit too much and a bit too often. We all know that everyone makes mistakes but we don't really do very well (IMO) at creating the sort of environment where those that do can afford to stand up and admit it and then move on. The stakes are so high that in many cases, they keep doggedly on their original path looking for increasingly ludicrous justifications for their actions!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:39 
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Mr Brunstrom wrote:
“It has, for far too long, been too socially acceptable to be killed or injured in a road collision


I do not know by what logic he comes to this conclusion :popcorn:

He does not know the effects on the bereaved/relatives - whether causer or victim. :furious:

If he was as aware as we are from what happened within our own family all those years ago - then he would not utter such complete bollox.

Ferdl as all know was killed when the driver of a lorry lost control at just 20 mph. It ploughed throught the central reserve into slow moving traffic on the other carriageway when its spongey brakes and defunct steering rack failed. That driver tried to kill himself a couple of years later - such was the guilt and trauma suffered. Likewise the widow of the man who hit Wildy herself also tried to top herself because she blamed herself for not stopping her husband that awful morning when he complained of feeling ill at the breakfast table.

The trauma on each side does not make our decent-ish society think any accident to be "socially acceptable" but speed did not cause either of those incidents either and Mr Brunstrom is guilty of "lip service to road safety on the back of a cheap gimmick which has raked in plenty of revenue from fines but not actually improved road safety nor driving standards".

As I have been discovering from just glancing at the USA recently - there is world wide evidence that speed camera policy contributes very little to road safety/KSI reduction. What would prevent accdidents or help reduce them would be driver education/better training/periodic re-tests on theory - very possible with computers these days as we accept that a practical assessed drive might be a bit too difficult to administer for 32 million of us., :popcorn:


It's all very well for Mr Brunstrom to realise some 10 years later that his cameras do not work. We've been saying so .. and we've been suggesting more police to pull for downright careless to dangerous driving. However, we need top calibre police who are capable of enforcing without an eye on a "target" in exchange for " the police equivalent of "the old Green Shield/Co-Op Dividend Stamps/Tesco Clubcard/Nectar points) and who are also objective and apply their judgement to a fair and uniform code of good practice.

:popcorn:


Basically - all Brunstrom has to do is advocate the late Paul Smith's ideas on some areas of road safety .. blended with the good ideas as posted by IG/Rigpig/Mole/horse/Ernest Marsh/JT/botach/Claire and all the others on this message board.

We've already sorted real road safety via this board after all as a collective of fair minded and decent enthusiasts . :D

I am pleased that he appears to be seeing the light on the road to Safety Proper. I'd like to think it's because of what he has read on this message board. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:23 
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Mole wrote:
That seems a bit harsh! OK, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I have to say that if anything, I have MORE respect for someone who can so publicly stand up and admit they got it wrong!


Quite. I never understand why "U-turn" is one of the worst insults that can be directed at a politician.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 16:20 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Mole wrote:
That seems a bit harsh! OK, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I have to say that if anything, I have MORE respect for someone who can so publicly stand up and admit they got it wrong!

Quite. I never understand why "U-turn" is one of the worst insults that can be directed at a politician.

I am not a great fan of John Maynard Keynes, but his famous quotation of "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" seems appropriate here.

Although of course the facts never supported Brunstrom's speedcam mania.

Only the other day I have had another e-mail from someone aggrieved at being caught by an inconspicuous Talivan in an underposted limit in North Wales :(

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 18:53 
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PeterE wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Mole wrote:
That seems a bit harsh! OK, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I have to say that if anything, I have MORE respect for someone who can so publicly stand up and admit they got it wrong!

Quite. I never understand why "U-turn" is one of the worst insults that can be directed at a politician.

I am not a great fan of John Maynard Keynes, but his famous quotation of "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" seems appropriate here.

Although of course the facts never supported Brunstrom's speedcam mania.

Only the other day I have had another e-mail from someone aggrieved at being caught by an inconspicuous Talivan in an underposted limit in North Wales :(


Good Lord Peter I thought that you didn't bother clicking on a thrrad with my name on it as nothing worthwhile will be added to the discussion

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 23:14 
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Speed camera maniac suddenly changes his mind?

I don't buy it for a second.

A little silence on his part would be most welcome.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 22:55 
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Must be the cynic in me but I agree with Zitro, not making enough money now and bet they still keep all the cameras and scammers.

Regards

PS just spotted this thread further down the forum topics. June 5th Brunstron wants specs introduced.

Wales to get SPECS

Obviously cannot make up his mind.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 23:41 
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I think we might be giving the man too much credit in assuming this statement means that he's seen the error of his ways. It's more likely to be hyperbole to garner emotive support for his latest scheme to mete out summary justice.

Summary justice is an oxymoron.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 21:18 
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RobinXe wrote:
I think we might be giving the man too much credit in assuming this statement means that he's seen the error of his ways. It's more likely to be hyperbole to garner emotive support for his latest scheme to mete out summary justice.

Summary justice is an oxymoron.



Oh I agree. Tjis guy's a politico rent-a-mouth in all angles. I am giving him a 45 degree angle of light. I am probably as "au fait" as the novice £"coundillor" :popcorn:

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