Safe Speed Forums

On another fora, that no doubt Gordon Brown knows I frequent , there is a thread on the legalities of farm trailer brakes. The jist of it being that above a certain speed one is required to have ABS and fail safe trailer brakes that come on should trailer and tractor part company.

So, assuming good maintainance, how often is mechanical failure the cause of a crash?

My guess is that it is rather infrequent and that better driver training would reduce more accidents that fail safe brakes.

Is it going to far to say that if you put yourself in a situation where you HAVE to use your brakes (other than for stopping at a junction) you're a bad driver?

Weepy, I think I know what you mean, but you have worded that badly. Reading literally what you have written it would imply that you are a bad driver if you brake to avoid hitting a pedestrian who hasn't checked before walking into the road.

If I am correct, then it doesn't mean you are automatically a bad driver. If one has to emergency brake, then something has indeed gone wrong. A good driver is one who mitigates against the errors of others I think. And I think that is what you meant- am I right?

I must say that when I'm on the bike and I see a ped about to step into the road a litte ding on the bell normally stops them dead. I rarely use the brakes when I'm on a push bike other than for planned stops.

I suppose a little toot on the car horn could acheive the same effect, but I've never done it myself (although I use the bell often).

I figure it's because peds hear cars coming more easily that a push bike.

Also, on the bike I'm doing 17 to 20 mph.

Using brakes on the open road smacks of charging into situations you probably should be holding back from.

I also use the bell on a bike. Sometimes a light toot in the car just to let the person we are there . usually if I note the peds are arguing and may just bolt out .. rare but did so once in a big town.

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The summary below doesn't perfectly answer your question because it doesn't take into account good maintenance, but it should give you a feeling for it:




Well done to weepej for derailing a thread on only the second post.
BTW, it is a bit more difficult to not take evading action by not braking when doing ~30 instead of 17/20 and when the vehicle is several times wider. Saying that, I've had to perform more emergency braking manoeuvres when riding my bike than when driving my car, even with those factors combined; indeed the only 'hit' I've ever had was when I was riding my bike. At least in a car you can brake without needing to set up the riding position, or risking endoing and/or falling off.

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Am I a bad driver if I use brakes when approaching a corner?

Building on that: what if you HAVE to use your brakes when sensing a possibility for a hazard up ahead, so slowing down to ensure you can still stop in the distance you can reasonably expect to be clear?

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I'd not rely on my brakes to slow me down, that's for sure. If you're braking going into a corner and would fall off if your brakes failed then I'd say you're approaching the corner too fast in the first place.

edit: also, I mean actually have to use your brakes, like in an emergency. Which I figure using them for a hazard up ahead, or peeling some speed off before a corner is not an emergency.

Using your brakes whilst IN a corner to stop yourself falling off IS an emergency and if you have to do it it's a mistake, if you have to do it often you're clearly a bad driver.

Indeed Steve. Have taken the liberty of opening a new thread on "cornering"








As said in a new thread as I tried to avoid a thread hi-jack - you need to approach the bend per COAST and limit point techniques and adjust accordingly to the speed of the limit point's movement .. as the bend straightens and the limit point starts to move away - you accelerate towards the limit point in proportion to straightening out our steering

On the bicycle .. lean into it Pedal power .. whoah!

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weepej, can you tell me what this has to do with my original question?

I have brakes and intend using them. They always work because they are maintained properly. I wanted to know how often mechanical failure causes accidents because certain rules and regs imply it is a big problem, but it would appear that there is no problem.

Steering back to topic .. we deal with jacknifed trailers fairly often and these can be a mix of speed .. incorrect loading or even poor hitching of the trailer.


Occasionally HGVs will overcook brakes on steep down hills ... etc.

Sometimes the "mechanical failure" can be down to the driver not fully understanding how his "safety device" actually works.

So fairly diffiuclt to estimate .. but let's say that poorly maintained vehicles are more than likely to figure on the "mechanical failure stats" than one which has been well looked after ..

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Off the top of my head I'd say brake "failure" is at the heart of a good many crashes, or certainly would've been given that somebody appears to have come up with a reg that requires a fail safe brake.

Certainly relying on your brakes too much can actually cause them to fail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fade

Depends on the car as to expected mileage. But if your car is serviced regularly - then mechanic usually tells us about parts coming up for renewal. I gather Ted took Vrenchen's car up for its annual service .. followed by MOT number one.


He says he came away with an impressive health check tick list and told the brakes are halfway through life span.

But weepy . a well maintained car? Rare that brakes would not be checked out by these owners.

Of course things can go wrong .. and most "mechanical failures" are driver error in not knowing how to use ABS properly or even incorrect tyres (which come under defects' brolly")

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A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

But isn't that what they're for? What do you use: gears, some kind of parachute deployment, or what?

And as for your remark on brake fade, have you ever experienced it on the road rather than on a track?

I have once in ~400,000 miles, and it lasted for a very short period, and was due to me driving like a knob, on new pads, when a lot younger and stupider.

I'm not going to avoid braking to avoid the risk of brake fade.

When it's a car horn, there are far too many pedestrians these days who would respond by giving you the middle finger and then walking out anyway

Yep.. agree. New brake pads have to bed in .... That would perhaps account for some "mechanical failure" in a well maintained vehicle .. and even then you can argue some driver error as a contributory factor

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Brake fade is more commonly associated with drum brakes. The heat generated by braking cause the drums to expand until, ultimately, they are beyond the maximum travel of the shoes. I have had this happen descending a lakeland pass in a heavily laden 2CV.

Weepje said that he wouldn'trely on his breaks to stop him, no that he wouldn't use them. I think it is very wise to always consider how you would control your car should the brakes fail.

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What do you do on DCs and motorways with short exit slips, especially downhill ones? Should you slow down to 30/20mph while still on the main carriageway?
Don't get me wrong: I regularly practice emergency engine braking just to make sure I can do it (and I know what I should do with my handbrake), but sometimes you just gotta go with the brakes.

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Use engine breaking.. gearing.. und so on. I think coaches und HGV suffer more as you do see them overheat on the steep descents back home.. We once saw a spectacular smoking one with a coach on the descent from Grossglocker into Heiligenblut (Austria) He ended up in a very dangerous situation by having to use his pal in the other coach to slow him down. The coach drivers each show remarkable calm und skill there but it was basically caused because he ride on brakes instead of using engine/gears

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