Safe Speed Forums

Well, believe it or not, the title of this post is what a driver shouted at me this morning on my cycle commute to work.

I am interested in the views of others on the circumstances that led to this demonstration of hatred towards cyclists.

My commute takes me on a climb of about 1/2 mile and at the top there are traffic lights and a queue of cars during rush hour. So I pass the queue (on the right, I NEVER overtake on the inside, even if there is a marked cycle lane) and move to the front, waiting for the green light. On green I move off and I am quickly (before any cars go past me from the queue at the lights) behind a large recovery truck which has just pulled away from a pedestrian crossing - one of those trucks that recovers artic lorrys. There is a short flat section here and this is normally where a few cars from the previous lights go past me, prior to a downhill where I often catch those cars again - depending on whether they are obeying the speed limit or not (I prefer they don't obey it and get a good distance ahead to avoid getting in my way). But not today, because we have a slow moving truck in front, about 20mph.

So I assert my road position behind the truck, to avoid a driver coming alongside me with nowhere to go (other than into the cyclists road space). Then we have the descent and I am on the brakes behind the truck. I am in the centre of my side of the road to prevent the car behind coming alongside me, we are now about 30mph. I am aware of a car very close on my wheel and you can feel the aggitation - they have a cyclist in front who is not in the gutter (shock: the cyclist is doing 30 odd in a 30 limit and is in the flow of the traffic). A mile or so later and I am still behind the lorry, about one car length between us to leave a safe stopping distance. Then some more lights, truck goes left hand lane and I go right hand lane alongside it. Truck driver gives me a nod, maybe he has enjoyed watching me get covered in his spray for the last couple of miles! I am at the front of the queue at the lights.

The next set of lights is only 100 yds in front and there is a queue of cars so I stay toward the middle of the lane to discourage drivers from passing and then heavy braking/cutting me up when they finally notice the traffic is stopped in front. Well that didn't work today as the driver who has been behind for the last coupla miles switches to the inside lane, accelerates up my inside swings across my front wheel and then hits the brakes just in time for the stationery traffic. I brake hard but it's not possible to stop in time so I have to swerve up the inside.

Said car is now stuck in the traffic as I continue my journey, having learnt over the years not to get aggitated at this sort of aggression towards cyclists, because it doesn't help. I shortly arrive at the office and hear a car pull up behind me - to my amazement, it is said driver who has decided that trying to knock me off is not enough - they want to give me a piece of their mind as well. This is a woman in a 4x4. Well I have nothing against 4x4 vehicles, which possibly makes me an unusual cyclist, but this woman was using it as a weapon. The tirade of abuse she gave me made me feel sorry for her husband - the fact that I am 6' 3" and could have been anyone didn't bother her one bit and she just laid into me, saying I had held her up since the top of the hill and how dare I get in her way. I asked whether she had seen the large truck immediately in front of me, or the other stationery traffic, or whether she appreciated at all that I was simply cycling with the flow of the traffic and following best safe practice at those speeds. Well apparently this is not allowed and she wants my details to report me to the Police. She responded by saying that cyclists should be in the gutter where they belong and as she walked back to her car she said "I hope you are killed".

What did I do wrong?

the only thing you did wrong was not to give her your details so she could come good on her offer report you to the police.
and possibly to take hers and do likewise.

I tried that once before when some scaffolders threw a drinks bottle at me as they went past and squirted some liquid on me. I took their reg. and reported it to the Police but I felt like I was wasting their time.

It didnt take this post very long to get off topic did it only a couple of replies and back to police didnt seem to bother. I thought that the Op was asking his for an opinion on what had gone on,or am i being a bit defensive never mind I am sure someone will put me right shortly.
Stephen

well its pretty clear from the OP that in fact he did nothing wrong.
of course without being there or seeing real footage or knowing the roads intimately its hard to form an independant opinion, but from the description and knowing several similar situations where staying primary is the best (if not always the most popular) option, it's all beleivable to me.

if you're worried about this staying on topic then presumably you have an opinion too ?


and yes you're being defensive, but since you bring it up.
having been in situations with similarly aggressive drivers and taking the usual advice to report it, ok theres probably nothing they can do on your say so but get it recorded in case next time it escalates. i had to pay for parking to go in person to the police station to be interviewed, they told me they would be asking the fleet operator for details of the driver on that day and would have a word... and phone to update me in a weeks time, did they? i have no idea, they certainly didn't phone.
i see alot of threads like this on the various fora i inhabit and the initial response from police is probably 50/50 good / indifferent, the follow up is 90% dismal.

Only one observation. It makes perfect sense to you as a cyclist to "stay toward the middle of the lane to discourage drivers from passing", but this may seem rather deliberately obstructive to a motorist that didn't understand your motive for doing so. Why would it be such a bad thing to let the cars pass you? I think I'm missing the point; surely you could just filter back past them in due course if the traffic slows.

I have a certain dislike for slow motorcyclists who hold me up for a bit but then "filter" past me when we get held up at a junction only to hold me up again. Would I be within my rights to position myself at traffic lights to "discourage them from filtering" so they didn't hold me up again shortly afterwards? It wouldn't occur to me to do so.

It would be a 'bad' thing if there's not enough gap in front of you for your own safe gap plus a car.
I said on this thread viewtopic.php?f=34&t=19394



it should be obvious to any competent motorist (whether its a cyclist, car, motorbike, tractor whatever) that you are..
a) moving at the same speed as the vehicle in front of you
and
b) there's no room to reasonably overtake

Is it possible you could have prevented the following car from overtaking the truck? (it doesn’t matter if there was a queue up ahead where you would have caught them anyway)

Or

Could a driver reasonably expect to not be able to safely pass a slower vehicle on that stretch of road?


I bet was a bit disconcerting! The response of that driver is pretty much inexcusable.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

By that rationale

I should never overtake anything that doesn't have a clear road in front of it (i.e. one of several cars in front of me), and vehicles in front of me should move to prevent me doing so if they don't think I should/can, right?

I can't see johnsussex did anything wrong. he was keeping with the traffic flow and I understand that a cyclist will sometimes adopt "primary position" for their own safety (and why not). Frankly a cyclist behind a slow moving truck would NOT be a barrier to a safe overtake, they only add a few yards to the "exposed" distance.

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

From the drivers point of view, your defensive position in the road might have looked like you were hogging the road and impeding her progress. But if by overtaking you she would have been stuck behind the same vehicle as you were she's a prat and don't worry about it.

To address a couple of the responses, for which many thanks:
- There is no opportunity for a car to overtake another car or truck along this stretch of road, it is built up with shops along the side, constant traffic in both directions, parked cars, pedestrians, central refuges etc. and 30 limit.
- I was simply riding with the traffic flow, the same as a motorcyclist or other car would be. If someone behind me wanted to pass they would simply take my roadspace and be behind the truck. Nobody was going to get past the truck - not even me. Anyhow, he was driving at around the speed limit and it doesn't get much faster than that during peak times. This is quite normal along here at that time of the morning and it is more usually a long line of cars. I'm not holding anything up and if I was I would move to the left - this morning the truck was holding me up and I was on the brakes a lot of the time. The problem was that this particularly dim woman was unable to see past the cyclist - to her I must have been in her way just because I was a cyclist. Never mind that I was travelling with the flow of the traffic behind a truck, at or around the speed limit.
- The reason I take what you refer to as 'primary' in this situation is to ensure that a car does not come alongside then forget I'm there and push me into the kerb, or half wheel me. To overtake a cyclist along that stretch of road means going well over the centre line. So what tends to happen if you don't take prime in the flow of traffic is a car will come alongside you and take position behind the car in front, then they forget you are there and overlook you are at the same speed as them, and you get pushed into the kerb or spat out the back. If you take the kerbside then some cars will try to pass and cut you up, or will pass and immediately hit the brakes, causing me to brake hard or in one case I immediately overtook them again. This is a situation common to fast cycling because I am travelling at a speed that most motorists fail to judge properly - the same speed as a motorcyclist in that situation and nobody would have that problem with a motorcyclist behind a lorry at 30mph would they? This is it in simple terms: "there's a cyclist in front so I must overtake it...... oh shit now I'm going faster than I want to.... hit brakes hard... gosh that cyclist nearly hit the back of my car, what a dangerous cycling idiot".
- I think the final straw for her was at the lights further up because I moved straight into the RH lane and maintained primary to stop at the lights. A lot of cyclists would follow the kerb and then try to get in the right lane at the stop line, and I would probably do that if I was doing 15mph. Confident cycling hacks less capable motorists off, I discovered that before and it's simply because they cannot push you around as easily. I maintained primary at the lights because I knew of the possibility of being cut up in the very short stretch from the stop line to the next line of stationary cars. It was a manoevre of great stupidity to swerve into the inside lane and then deliberately cut me off and it saved her ermm.... no time at all because she arrived at the back of the queue at the same time as me and simply 'pushed' me out of her way.

The best example of what happens when you don't take primary was last summer when I was competing in a two up TT - we were coming into a town at just under 40 mph, full race numbers, skin suits, disc wheels etc. Quite noticable in 2-up formation you would have thought. Well not to the caravanner who tried to overtake us (30mph limit) just before a pedestrian refuge. But rather than acknowledge his mistake and pull back, he forced his way through by pushing us into the pavement. I don't know how he missed us, but it was due to our bike handling and not his judgement. Then he held us up for the next couple of miles through the town. So what do you do, take primary 100 yds ahead of any pedestrian refuge?

errrr
no, none of the above follows logically from my statement as far as i can see.
if you think it does you'll have to fill in a few more intermediate steps.

you should never overtake unless you know there's a gap to pull in to when the pass is complete.
you should cooperate with someone who chooses to overtake, even if it is ill advised.

Unfortunately ed .. listen again to Tuesday';s Whine prog. whereb a police Super with the Met advised NOT to bother the police as they have "priorities"#


Contrast with Stephen.. IG,, IanH who say - let them know.. they will advise all patrols to be on the look out at least.

FOR RECORD


We love driving.

We love cycling./


I love my motorbike. (Mad Doc hates my Ducati I am safe enough all the same when riding the bike I call "George" as it sound like CHARGE! (Them cycling lurks will twist this one for all it worth. I pre-empt 'em ))

I love horses. All of us do ride horses.. some of the family are much better than others und my sister Krissi ist not only acclaimed as horsey vet specialist .. but she can ride a horse rather well in acclaimed circles . She does American style.. side saddle und the racier stuff on those beasts she owns


But back to the R2 prog whereby a MET officer suggested not to tell police as "too much hard work for them".. I would go with IG who as a an officer serving them "burbs" .. show the Met how to do the job with style und prosecution affect

I KNOW police cannot respond to each complaint.. but when the same intelligence given to them . then they must act. I would say that if they want everyone's DNA .. then they have to be seen to record all intelligence of all offences as offered to them first. That way they can prove why all in UK should be on some DNA database after all.

I go off the OP topic . SORRY.


My view .. still education of manners. COAST values.. bikeability - with cop presence full time to reinforce all sensible values with appropriate professional acidic discretion.

I am sure a real cop would have been most acidic in reply to the OP whom I respect.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

As far as I'm concered john has a duty to report this person's behaviour to the police; the next time she might actually seriously injure or kill somebody, or maybe she already has?

The police also have a duty to record it, if they don't report them.

Contrast with ed brain' s experience.


I think she was a right mumpty numpty in reality.

But still evaluate. Think why the other party may have interpreted that way. Even if you still see no logic to her actions.. you still have the advantage of a learning curve for the future.


Weepy.. listen again to R2 whiney prog of yesterday. Pay close attention to the Met super .. who not like IG who say his team use such intelligence.


Always look to the light Liebchen. It keeps us sane.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!