Safe Speed Forums

There are a lot of EU laws, nobody pays any attention to the majority of them.
I have a van that has no electronic anything, and intend to keep it for years.
The new vans are a mess of shit, you cannot do any servicing because you cannot even get to the engine, it is entombed in noise suppression.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

The age of the car is over. We just have high-tech stuff nobody really understands now. The mechanics have to guess what's wrong, and you need a PhD to change the belts. It's a crap situation, and it all needs rolling back. There hasn't been a decent car out in years, just plastic, ersatz stuff suitable for old biddies.

PS: I've probably heaped enough scorn on the makers, so I'll quit now. But first, let me just say what a crap idea it is to have flimsy plastic bumpers. My old Sierras and Corollas had great, sturdy black, hard plastic bumpers, useful for nudging cars out of the way when you are hemmed in. Now I'm scared of breaking the bloody plastic.

If you do not like the gizmos and electronics why not just build your own car? Plenty of kits out there that within the scope of sva/iva will let you build something pretty simple and straight forward.

Even if you need an ecu you can build one to your own design (given time ) or use a kit built on an open platform with software you can modify if you want to.

Not exactly the easy option, but if you really want a car built the way you want it...

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Have you considered one of these?

I think they're still about as simple as they come... fun, too.

It's good, but if I buy less, it has to cost less! I would prefer to buy a normal car at a discount price, and have all the crap ripped out of it, and made into a proper car. Best of all would be if they made proper cars in the first place, but I'd have to go back to 1980 to have that!

Actually...a 1980 car (I'd have a mk1 XR2), but with good brakes and decent rust protection, and I'll agree with you there. Oh, and decent seats.

i suspect thats a 'passive' safety measure for pedestrian impacts.

That's actually not too far off what OBDII involves at present! The fault codes for OBDII are pretty much standardised already. Don't get me wrong. We have two separate arguments here. One is that cars are too complex and that we don't need this level of complexity to make a perfectly good car. The other is that manufacturers are trying to protect their service networks by going out of their way to make sure that only theor own agents can understand the car. I have some sympathy for the second argument - (of course that's what they do!) but I have limited sympathy for the first. They are constrained by law (and consumer pressure to a great extent) such that if they tried to market a car the way Abercrombie wants, they'd go out of business because there's only him and a couple of others who never really liked the idea of taking the horses off the front that would buy one!!!

(i) and (ii) are pretty much what happens already. One of the big problems with a standardised list of fault codes that everyone has to use is that it stifles innovation. As soon as "Manufacturer X" invents a new ECM that nobody else has, (purely to annoy Abrcrombie, you understand! ) he ends up in a situation where he needs to define another set of fault codes for that ECM. That puts everyone else's list out of date. PLUS he has to (effectively) tell the world about this new doodah he's just spent umpteen million £££ inventing in the hope that it will give his product the edge over the competition.

(iii) happens but instead of a USB link, it's an OBDII connector - pretty standard across the industry. I even have a lead that goes from USB to OBDII for my wife's car.

(iv) You forgot to also insist on having a complete set of drawings for all the bits on the car and a list of suppliers so you could go out to China and get your own spares made for tuppence!

(v) and (Vi) ..." well I did the upgrade on the airflow meter the other day, downloaded the new software and everything. Next thing I knew, I turned the radio on and my bleedin' airbag went off"! I think it's a very scary idea to be honest! Maybe it's just me but my experience of downloading and installing updates on PCs and the various programmes they run hasn't always been that successful. Now I'm pretty sure it's my ineptitude that's largely to blame, but I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to take that sort of risk with a car! In these litigious times, the manufacturer has to cover his backside to an unbelieveable extent. Imagine the trouble he could end up in by letting "Joe public" loose on the safety or environmentally critical bits!

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have access to just the sort of sstem you describe, but looking at the bigger picture, I hope you'll agre there are potentially huge drawbacks too!

Actually, I DO have a on-board system for just that purpose! it can even diferentiate between a No.1 and a No.2! Only trouble is, it's so bloody complex, that if it packs up I need to go to a specialist service centre to have it looked at! Typical God, that. Just trying to ensure a monopoly on service and repair work for the medical profession! He should have just made me incontinent!

Anyway, why don't you make yourself a fortune importing old Hillman Hunters from Iran and selling them to all these people who "just want a simple car with no stupid gizmos"? Get them over 10 years old and you won't even need to do an SVA test!

And there, I think, is the heart of the problem. If we want to do the DIY we need to acquire new skills to do it. That's been the case right from the dawn of motoring. Ever since the first coachbuilders started bemoaning the use of metal instead of wood! I agree with Lucy. A little fault code reader is pretty cheap and is very likely to pay for itself the first time you use it. £50 got me a PC programme (albeit specific to a particular make of vehicle) that does all that AND lets me watch the output of half a dozen sensors in real time as the car runs. Looking back at the HOURS I used to spend farting around with carburettors and distributors trying to get the damned thing running right only to find that a week later it all needed doing again, I think I actually PREFER the brave new digital world of engine management!

Mole: I remember when cars switched from points to electronic distributors and that was the "end" of DIY maintenance apparently. If fact your are right, maintenance is probably easier today, its just that the tools you need don't come from Agos in a Christmas presentation box, hence no-one has them.

Of course the real problem is that manufacturers have no comercial interest in this. After all they could easily incorporate diagnostics in the Sat Nav screen which could diagnose everything (except a flat battery).

The real problem is that the manufacturers do not see a reason to incorporate a user-interface on a system that the vast majority of users would not [could not] understand, or use.
The other reason: Why include a system that, even though they did not understand, users would abuse ?
if you have a system that utilises hardware and firmware to provide fast function modification as a means of reducing emissions, then the last thing you want is Mr Fast-Back altering it to go faster.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Unless you have access to all the bits, and can change them, the car is incomplete in my opinion.
I am trying to buy a simple, maintainable, robust, reliable, efficient, durable and cost-effective machine, but
the boneheads keep trying to sell me a lifestyle. Why oh why can't they get it? I feel like telling them to
stuff the bells and whistles up their bums, where they might do some good.

PS: the best car I ever had was a Chevrolet Cavalier, that I bought in Montreal circa 1994. It
had it all, i.e. absolutely plain vanilla!

But part of the reasoning is to stop the users doing alterations.
The end-goal is to produce a machine that the users cannot, even with all the ingenuity that man can bring to the subject, alter.
Even if it means producing a completely sealed and unreachable unit. Which IS the way things are going.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Then that is the goal. That is what we should strive to stop. I'm doing my bit. I'm not changing my cars, I'm trying to keep them going til hell freezes over, because cars now are better than cars will be, and cars from the '80 and '90s are the best of all. If they insist of screwing things up, making vehicles no-one wants and going out of business (as they now are doing), then we should rejoice and say "good riddance to bad rubbish", and certainly not give them tax money to subsidize ever more crappy cars!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7853149.stm

I don't think that the car industry is going bosom up because of a lack of desire for new cars; rather because fewer people can afford them. The great mass of population have been brain-washed into the paradigm that newer is better, not just in cars but in all consumer goods. Only in the engineering profession do you find many who subscribe to my motto - "If the widget did the job well ten years ago and the job hasn't changed then there is no need to change the widget (unless it is unrepairable)".

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I don't mind that, but it accidentally involves me in the collateral damage. I can't get a good, cheap machine either. But I can see over the top of this. We've been so used to an upward trajectory that no-one knows how to act in a downward one. That has to change - we have to learn to cope when we are broke, and that means we have to relearn cheap old tricks, not expensive new ones.

E.G. Strong bumpers, less electric rubbish, and easy to mend.

My frustration is not so much about the change in technology but the change in attitude! (by the makers)

In the past I had a series 2 XJ12, the owners handbook (the one that goes in the glovebox! NOT the "workshop manual") contained in great detail all the routine servicing procedures, including pictures of grease nipple locations and so on. This was clearly not for the owners benefit, (at least not the first one anyway) it was for the benefit of any garage that the owner had taken his car to for servicing.

I also had a Rover P6 TC. setting The camshaft timing (as with modern vehicles) required the use of special tools. However (unlike modern vehicles) the special tools were included in the standard toolkit that came with the car! Again, this was unlikly to be for the owners benefit but rather for the benefit of any workshop that the car might be taken in to for, say, a blown head gasket!

(the Rover also had features that showed that the designers had considererd access issues for maintenance and had made Specific provision to make access easier (the front crossmember had two little cut outs in it to provide access to the front sump retaining bolts, as I have said before, on a modern vehicle more offten than not you will find an otherewise clear access blocked by a plate welded accross that seems to serve no other purpose han to force you to remove the engine! )

(The bodywork design on the P6 was "Unique" and was also designed with ease of low cost repair after minor accidents very much in mind. (You could replace a dented wing in less than 30 minuits! Fully painted the lot!!) I might describe in more detail later)

The main gripe is that the new technology has been used not just to meet various emissions standards (which IMO are getting silly, and have been for some time. The BIG imptovements were all achieved by the early 90's we are well past "deminishing returns" limits by now) it has also been exploited to controll the life cycle of the vehicles in a way that never existed before.

Most of my vehicles are over 20 years old, The "Young" ones I inherited last year when my Dad died. The "Youngest" is an R reg Jag. It is a lovely, comfortable luxury car. (Sadly it is also a bit tatty, my dad was prone to scraping bollards unfortunatly) And it is being slowly killed by the electronics! I have no doubt that The engine and transmission could run till doomsday, but the electronics are progressivly dying. I have had to pull the fuse from the electric windows because the computer that controlls them has gone mad! The stupid interlock thing that stops you from moving the gearbox out of park unless the ignition is on has died (fortunatly I was able to "work round" that one) The ESP warning lights come on at first start (but go out later )

and so on!

Now, I might well be tempted to spend the £500-1000 (or whatever) that it would take to deal with all these bugs because it is a nice car and will be unlikly to be replaced, but I wont because I could get all these fixed only to find that some other piece of expensive techycrap goes wrong in 3 months time. This should not be confused with mechanical repais on old cars! when you fix those you KNOW they are fixed. With old electronics it is an expensive lottery.

I doubt if many 2008 cars will still be running in 2028 Assuming that a) suitable fuel is still available and b) Governments havent brought in "Anti-old-car" legislation my, already old ,old cars will likly Still be running!

The one that has the best chance of doing so (since you mentioned it ) is the SII Land Rover!(which will be 60 in 2028!) The next most likly is my 1984 VW transporter (by which time it should be up to 450,000) and after that the 94 LandBruiser

(Spares avalability is likly to be the biggest issue, I believe Toyota will manitain spares availability for the landcruiser range, but I recognise that the landcruiser, despite its lack of excessive electronicrap, is likly to be the most vulnerable to manufacturers planned obcelessance The VW will probabally have "Important" parts available indefinatly and as for the Landrover.... )

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

And not just with the makers. This thread has thrown the spotlight on how well the makers have done in convincing car owners that they need lots of crap to keep up with the Joneses.

Instead of keeping the customer satisfied, now the makers spend their money manipulating opinion and conning politicians into making stupid laws that punish the driving public! And after all that, the shareholders get a government bailout!

Keep your old jalopies running Dusty, and do them down if you can.

To get back to the Machieavellian plot for needlessly complex brake pad wear sensors, here's an example from real life:

I have a 5 series BMW, with all the mod cons that Abercrombie fears. When the brake pads wear it exposes a contact, This pulls a line down to earth to illuminate a lamp on the instrument panel. Via the onboard electronics it also "latches" this setting so that the lamp will never go out until you positively do something to put it out. As others have said, this is to stop it flickering on and off every time you brake.

So how do you reset this system, having changed the pads in your drive? Do I have to go back to the dealers and pay them an arm and a leg? Do I have to buy an expensive special tool? No. Just turn the ignition on and open the drivers door for 30 seconds.

How did I find that out? I went on an internet forum. Therein lies the solution to all this complexity. We live in a computerised age, like it or not. Hell, we're all sat here arguing the point on computers that are thousands of times more powerful than the stuff that got Neil Armstrong and chums to the moon. Is that a needless waste of technology? Should we be resisting it and insisting on using a rattly typewriter instead?

No. We just trust personal choice and the free market. If Besingwerk wants to drive a MKII Escort he's free to go and buy one, and then to spend his weekends chasing rust, changing the oil every 3,000 miles, and replacing engines as they wear out in around 60-80K miles, despite being cossetted all their working lives.

Or he can go and buy a modern car that is more economical, faster, quieter (and probably dryer!). It will stop better, stay on the road better and if the worst comes to the worst it will protect you in an accident by an order of magnitude better than the classic Escort. It will also have more room, will only need servicing probably every 15,000 miles and if treated with a modicum of respect will have a typical life of 150-200,000 miles. If the electronics goes wrong he can take it back to the dealers and get ripped off. Or he can take advantage of the fact that the massive margins of franchised dealers have left a huge opening in the market which means there are thousands of small independent specialists who have taken the time to learn all the necessary skills to deal with this sort of technology. When all is said and done they are still far simpler than the PC's we all embrace.

Or if he really wants to get his hands dirty he can do a bit of reading up, buy a suitable interface cable and a bit of software for about £50 and diagnose it himself.

If it weren't for the current levels of taxation, motoring has never been so cheap and easy.
[/RANT]

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!