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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:34 
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Lucy W wrote:
All we need to do is select a group of people, who represent a cross section of normal reasonable members of society, to have these thingys fitted and see how they get on.

I propose that every MP has one fitted for a 5 year trial.

Very funny!

They will be exempt on "security" grounds, of course.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 14:11 
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malcolmw wrote:
Lucy W wrote:
All we need to do is select a group of people, who represent a cross section of normal reasonable members of society, to have these thingys fitted and see how they get on.

I propose that every MP has one fitted for a 5 year trial.

Very funny!

They will be exempt on "security" grounds, of course.


Of course, too much chance of the terrorists using the blanket "OFF" command which will doubtless be built into the units.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 15:13 
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An interesting read:http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmtlgr/557/55710.htm#n175

Quote:
Dr Carsten argued that regardless of whether ISA was eventually made mandatory it was important to be in a position to use ISA in some form or other.[177] He made a number of recommendations to this end. They were supported by several other witnesses.[178] In the long run Intelligent Speed Adaption offers the opportunity to put an end to ** illegal and inappropriate ** speed. The Government should strongly support this technology by:

- continuing to fund research, including the projected trials from 2002 to 2006;

- encouraging voluntary adoption by fleet managers and providing tax incentives to those who do;

- establishing a Europe-wide requirement that all new vehicles sold from 2013 should have an ISA capability; and

- fund the development of a digital road map to ensure that the information needed to make ISA successful is easily available.


How will "inappropriate" speed be controlled I wonder ?
I have thought about this at length, it can only be controlled by selecting a maximum speed based upon the conditions.
So, we will see 60mph limit roads controlled to 40 in heavy rain, and 30 limit roads passing schools controlled to 10/15/20 at select times.
An interesting idea.
Of course, some roads have high accident rates in good weather.
I really must get hold of the design protocols for the proposed units. A look at the firmware should be educational....

Edit:
Interestingly, I find that contracts were started for work on ISA back in 2000/2002. So it can safely be concluded that most of the research is finished.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/safetyresearch/vsercompendiums/vehiclestandardsandengineeri4571?page=8

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 15:33 
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So if they introduce "variable" speeds on a road depending on weather and other conditions it will be just like the motorways....and how often have you seen a 40MPH limit posted on gantries for several hours after the "problem" has gone away?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 16:05 
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That's hardly representative, since the lane-limits are also used to slow traffic down if there is congestion ahead.
However, further searching:

Quote:
Advanced Driving Assistance Systems (ADAS)

Advanced Driving Assistance Systems (ADAS) combine vehicle capabilities to improve mobility and active safety. GALILEO will provide important additional data to ADAS on the vehicle's environment. ADAS then warns the driver of imminent danger or takes full or partial control over the vehicle. *** For instance, the speed could be reduced by ADAS under bad visibility conditions if the car approaches a tight turn too fast. *** This function will be possible only with accurate position data of guaranteed integrity furnished by GALILEO and local elements. It is expected that half of the vehicles operating in Europe by 2020 will carry ADAS.


http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/energy_transport/galileo/applications/road_en.htm

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 20:44 
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jomukuk wrote:
That's hardly representative, since the lane-limits are also used to slow traffic down if there is congestion ahead.
However, further searching:
Quote:
Advanced Driving Assistance Systems (ADAS)

Advanced Driving Assistance Systems (ADAS) combine vehicle capabilities to improve mobility and active safety. GALILEO will provide important additional data to ADAS on the vehicle's environment. ADAS then warns the driver of imminent danger or takes full or partial control over the vehicle. *** For instance, the speed could be reduced by ADAS under bad visibility conditions if the car approaches a tight turn too fast. *** This function will be possible only with accurate position data of guaranteed integrity furnished by GALILEO and local elements. It is expected that half of the vehicles operating in Europe by 2020 will carry ADAS.


http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/energy_transport/galileo/applications/road_en.htm
So they are already preparing for the day when speeding ticket revenue will no longer be neccesary?

What are we missing?

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3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 22:05 
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Quite apart from being made to drive at a speed I didn't choose, three things about ISA will make my piss boil:

1. The inevitability of a government IT system being unreliable, say making me drive all the way along the M27 at 20mph because some desk-jockey pressed the wrong button.

2. Being roared past by pikies in clapped-out, unlicenced cars who haven't been fitted with the kit.

3. We'll obviously have to pay for the equipment.



Still, if they only fit it to new cars, it'll do wonders for the 2nd-hand market!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 22:57 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
Still, if they only fit it to new cars, it'll do wonders for the 2nd-hand market!

If there's no compulsory retrofitting, the new car market would fall off a cliff.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 23:18 
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I think that quite a few people (probably still a minority) will want it fitted because they will (misguidedly) think that they will be doing their bit to "improve road safety" and stop them worrying about getting "nicked". There are many people round our way who don't even travel at the limit, even in excellent conditions etc but would probably still opt to have the system fitted if buying a new car and the cost wasn't too high.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 02:12 
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PeterE wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
Still, if they only fit it to new cars, it'll do wonders for the 2nd-hand market!

If there's no compulsory retrofitting, the new car market would fall off a cliff.


I don't think it will even be possible to retrofit systems as complex as that to cars that weren't designed to have them! (cars, in fact, like the ones I intend to buy if ever this gets off the ground)! :wink:

I don't buy an automatic car because I like to choose what gear I'm in and when. I wonder how long it will be before the government decides that having three pedals to play with AND a stick to twiddle is an unjustifiable distraction and mandates auto transmissions in all cars?!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 02:49 
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Mole wrote:
Yes, I was very disappointed too. I used to look up to that institution but they seem to be increasingly "dumbing down" and toeing the government's line. I can only hope they've been misquoted...


Sadly not. The press release that I based the story on came direct from the IAM.

It shocked me, too, to be honest.

IAM sucking at the Devil's teats? Sad fall for a once valuable organisation, IMO.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 08:37 
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I have to say that I would appreciate a system that warned me that I was EPL (exceeding posted limit - a less emotive term than speeding). Then I could decide whether or not to low down.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 09:59 
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I don't have a sat-nav (not yet anyway) but I thought that pretty much all the current units over about £100 had that feature? OK, it's only as reliable as the database from which it is compiled and with the authorities seemingly more often than I change my socks, there's stil la chance but for most of the roads, most of the time, I imagine it would work.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:15 
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My satnav has that feature anyway, the speed display changes to red when in excess of the supposed speed limit.
The database of speed limits and locations is never accurate and, although updated regularly, still has errors.
Note that the updating and signalling to the units would be by gsm, of one sort or another.
The 'papers always say "the satellite tells the unit what to do".....since the signalling rate of the gps data is very low it would take some time to "tell" anything.
Anyway, trials of this alleged system have been continuing for nearly ten years now with a large amount of research paid for.

and then there is always this: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/energy_transport/galileo/applications/road_en.htm

And this: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmtlgr/557/55702.htm

Note this section: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmtlgr/557/55710.htm#n175

So, while it is only just making the "headlines", the research has already been done.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:45 
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How could they do all this advance trialling without one important bit of the system - the Gallileo satellites?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 13:20 
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malcolmw wrote:
How could they do all this advance trialling without one important bit of the system - the Gallileo satellites?


As it is only a trail, couldn't they be using the American satellites?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 14:03 
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The same system (data/in/out) is used in both satsystems.
The more I go into this, the more I find that the basic, and the more complex, research has been done.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2002-01-0825

http://wlv.openrepository.com/wlv/handle/2436/15907

http://wlv.openrepository.com/wlv/handle/2436/15906

Any vehicle fitted with an ecu can be engine-speed-controlled...the braking is more difficult....but any modern abs system could, theoretically, be also commanded to brake remotely.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 15:32 
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jomukuk wrote:
Any vehicle fitted with an ecu can be engine-speed-controlled...the braking is more difficult....but any modern abs system could, theoretically, be also commanded to brake remotely.


I suspect you'd need ESP for this ?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 16:11 
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ed_m wrote:
jomukuk wrote:
Any vehicle fitted with an ecu can be engine-speed-controlled...the braking is more difficult....but any modern abs system could, theoretically, be also commanded to brake remotely.


I suspect you'd need ESP for this ?


Most new Mondeo sized cars and above already have ESP/traction control/ABS as standard. It is available (on higher spec or option) on most Focus sized cars and there is no technical reason that it could not be standard on all cars. In five years time it probably will be standard on all new cars. Unfortunately most of the bits needed to make ISA work are already available.

They don't actually need all vehicles to have ISA for the slowdown to work - it only needs a "critical mass" of speed limited vehicles. You only have to drive along the A14 to see the effect of speed limited lorries on the average speed. Even if you have a car without ISA you will still be caught in the queues.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 16:50 
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semitone wrote:
Most new Mondeo sized cars and above already have ESP/traction control/ABS as standard. It is available (on higher spec or option) on most Focus sized cars and there is no technical reason that it could not be standard on all cars. In five years time it probably will be standard on all new cars.


you're probably right it will be standard in a very short time.

my point is that to control pressure to the wheels independantly of the driver requires a few more valves and hence and ESP (or ABS + brake intervention TC) system rather than basic ABS only.


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