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WildCat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 13:46 
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Per the trailer blurb.

The "car of the future" :roll:


It ist intelligent. It change to speed limit as you pass the lolly. You cannot do 31 mph or 41 mph or even 71 mph.

:roll:

OK.. so how about SPECS und Tempo limits :scratchchin:

I see troubles ahead here already :yikes:


Also .. per the blurb

trailer blurb wrote:

What if the car behind you does not have this gadget und what if this car breaks down to the lower limit suddenly on passing the post und the we are moving from say .. NSL to 40 mph :yikes: Person behind may not be impressed at a sudden drop instead of a gradual slow down :yikes:



My worry? Over reliance on a gadget .. loss of skills.. .. complacency und even believing this gadget will stop the car for you should the "suddenly from nowhere" occur at all. I cannot see how on earth this can be "safe" .. especially given how Belgians interpreted the Cruise Control doo-dah once :shock: This caused a multiple in Belgium per the police who said that folk needed educating as to how to use it und even suggested that cars should not have them in 2005 :shock:

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WildCat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 14:40 
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Claire well done on the prog! :clap:


You put points across well... came across as calm .. intelligent und got in the education und need for drivers to be skilled.


I put up running commentary on PH site as I listen :hehe:

:drink: :drink2: :bighand: :clap: :clap:

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WildCat
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 14:48 
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what I wrote on PH wrote:

Currently on.

Road mapped to database based on GPS.

Car apparently smooth.

Car has an over-ride button .. but government do not want this.

The over-ride button was essential when overtaking a lorry in a 50 mph limit to give the extra oomph to pass safely.

(per Tom Simons on the show)


Brake on.. wanting compulsory speed limiters und already banging on about KSI.

Claire of safespeed on the prog. She ist talking about driver education und und the need to get out of danger ..

BRAKE on about head on collisions.

Claire talks of the "elephant race" und the loss of ability by over-reliance of cams.

BRAKE on about "no need to overtake if all at the limit" ..but agrees we can overtake a tractor

She ist going on about speed limits. Und need to keep to them on rural roads.

But 85th percentile mentioned und Vine mentions the boy racers who misbehave UNDER the speed limit und still die.

BRAKE banging on about children being killed in reply. Und Vine accusing now of her playing with the statistics und that the speed did not cause the accident BLIMEY! Und Mary did end up admitting this just now

Und Claire mentions the rtester telling us that it was if "someone else driving" which ist the feel I get when I set the cruise control. I do not like the sensation.

I feel as if I am a run away car over which I not have the control or the feel of him into my hands via his engine und steering wheel. This "feel" - I cannot quite define it .. but it the "feel" which enable that essential concentration und the pulling together of all the skills working in unison to make that drive safe.. relatively LEGAL overall und controlled .. by ME. I know when I look straight ahead to the gap how much space I have und how much SPace und Time I have to pass.


Comments flooding in. Person in N Wales wants one because of 34 mph in a 30 mph as she came out of 50 mph zone after 41 years of driving.

She went on a speed course und admits to speedo watching und not the road und states this to be why she want a speed limiter in the car


Und that ist why I do not want them ,, [i]because folk willl over-rely on them und forget the brake pedal und gear change when this ESSENTIAL



und

what I wrote on PH wrote:
Van driver wants the limiter to speed folk up to the limit in the NSL instead of the 40 mph in 60 mph moronic behaviour he sees .. which causes accident born out of furstration


Lot of calls coming in.

On chap says his ist the Brake pedal

Another says he's had one speed limiter for past 25 years .. his wife

Another says it inappropriate speed in daft situations.


Folk now coming in to say scheme hairbrained after the initial pro-lobby



It came on the prog about 1.30 pm for those who want to listen again :wink:

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Mole
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 00:45 
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Does anyone know where I can get hold of the stats for HGV KSIs from the years immediately before and after the introduction of speed limiters on HGVs? I thought Paul put one up once, years ago, possibly on the Cumbria Camera partnership forum? I have a vague feeling it showed an initial drop in HGV KSIs the year after they were introduced and then a rise back up to where they had been before - the theory at the time being that this happened as HGV drivers started "switching off" and just driving on the limiter. I notice that the news article spoke about these limiters being voluntary. Presumably with the government leaning on the insurers to provide some sort of discount if you have one fitted? I guess this will be so that when they fail to cut KSIs appreciably, the government wll be able to turn round and say that all the KSis were caused by the "hooligans" who didn't have them fitted - in the hope that they'll then get it made law...

...dark times ahead, methinks!

Of course, this is (I firmly believe) primarily about making private motoring such a crap experience that we start abandoning our cars, rather than anything to do with safety....

I very much doubt that these devices will ever be able to "slam on the brakes" as the car goes into a lower speed limit area though. In fact, I'd be surprised if they ever manage to get them to apply the brakes in any way, shape or form - that would need a huge degree of cooperation from the vehicle manufacturers and would probably end up making each box vehicle-specific. Besides, think of the lawsuits the manufacturers / government could get lumbered with!

I must say though, I'd absolutely wet myself laughing the day one of those self-righteous "speed kills" muppets ends up getting a ticket because they were relying on the "box" slowing them down at a speed limit change and it didn't do it quickly enough!
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jomukuk
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 01:29 
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The speed limiter on the truck at work applied the brakes on over speed.
Quite simple to do with abs....

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Ernest Marsh
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 08:20 
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This just has not been thought through.
The costs, the technology required - everywhere, the hiccups, and the time when the technology breaks down, and some prat slams into the back of the driver in front because he thought the gadget would slow him down but didn't realise that the driver in front was simply being over cautious.

The reporter on the BBC news said it all - "It's great - it feels as though somebody else is driving!"
If it's THAT great, take the train, but remember what happened at Potters Bar, and all the other places where thing went wrong!

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graball
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:22 
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Exactly, the day I want some in experienced wally from a government dept. to drive my car for me, I will ask them. In the meantime I intend to drive SAFELY using the experience I have gained over 35 years and probably a million miles, not the "safety" that this Govt. seem to think they know all about but in reality haven't got a clue. It's a fact, that for the majority of the UK, driver skill at the moment is at an all time low. Just imagine what it will be like when all the "idiots" get into a car that they think will do the hard work of "thinking" for them.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.
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Mole
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:28 
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jomukuk wrote:
The speed limiter on the truck at work applied the brakes on over speed.
Quite simple to do with abs....


Quite simple with ABS...

...when the same company that designed the ABS system designed the speed limiter!

I was under the impression that these would be "retro-fit" boxes. Unless they're going to be vehicle-specific, I can see BIIIIIG problems looming!

Still, I think I've just thought of another "must-have" accessory for my next car - a 6 volt positive-earth electrical system!
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anton
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:29 
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Every MP should be forced to drive one for a month before voting on such a device. Train tickets and chaufers should be banned for that month

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Toltec
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:44 
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My car has a speed limiter as part of the cruise control package, you cannot use both simultaneously. The people who want limiter should just buy a car with a similar system, if they unable to adjust the limiter to an appropriate level themselves then they should not be driving.

Actually if they need to use one at all then maybe they should not be driving...

This whole idea seems to be a technological solution applied to a perceived problem that only exists because a technological solution has been incorrectly applied to another problem.

The cat that ate the bird that ate the spider that ate the fly...

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malcolmw
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 13:01 
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As noted in another thread, the real, underlying reason for wanting to introduce this is mass vehicle tracking. "We know where you are" courtesy of the EU and Gallileo.

It's just been dressed up in a road safety "speed" wrapper to sell it to the public now that road pricing is a political liability.

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jomukuk
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 19:08 
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6v + earth, -ve earth, 12v, 15v, 24v.
No problems.
Any decent, or half-decent electronic system can take a multitude of different voltages and polarities and produce the supply it needs. Inverters, converters...
Most cellphones take the 3 volt battery supply and produce supplies for the various subcomponents of from 1.5 to 15 volts (and even dc to ac...)
Your pc takes 230v and derives +- 5 volt, +- 12 volt and +- 15 volts from that. Your laptop does that from a 19 volt supply.
Most ecus' are bomb proof with respect to varying supply and even downright incorrect polarity.
Fortunately, I am unlikely to be able to afford a decent enough car......

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing
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Mole
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 01:35 
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Yeah, but what would it do to such a car when it had been connected up? It wouldn't be able to control the throttle or the brakes!
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RobinXe
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 04:54 
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Its not even about the dangers in overtaking, its about the people with limiters who keep the pedal to the metal, secure in the knowledge that their technology will keep them safe, until they round the corner in the 30mph zone on black ice and decimate a family's Christmas.

If we're going to absolve drivers of every responsibility, we might as well dig up all the roads and replace them with train tracks.

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Mad Moggie
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:17 
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RobinXe wrote:
Its not even about the dangers in overtaking, its about the people with limiters who keep the pedal to the metal, secure in the knowledge that their technology will keep them safe, until they round the corner in the 30mph zone on black ice and decimate a family's Christmas.

If we're going to absolve drivers of every responsibility, we might as well dig up all the roads and replace them with train tracks.



Exactly. We already know that Belgian police were begging folk not to use cruise controls as they cameto the conclusion that these were causing more accidents as folk seemed to think the car would brake automatically for them :roll:

Either that or they were lulled into a zombie state whereby they just did not think at all. :banghead:

As my wife has already commented on PH - she does not like the cruise control because she feels as if she is in a "runaway car" over which she has no control.

I find that I share this opinion on the odd occasions I have used this ,, usually in a long SPECS situation. :wink: but then that's not fool proof as it knocks off if you touch any pedal and why I think some do get pinged in SPECS in reality. :roll:

Nothing is foolproof and it is naive to think that limiting a car's speed will save lives when it is the skill.. level of concentration.. awareness of what is happening around us which prevents accidents.

I do not see how removing responsiblility helps anyone or any safety initiative.

I suspect as Malcolm that it has more to do with toll taxing and snooping via tracking than any "safety concerns" :popcorn:

By the way .. Claire did fine on the prog :bow:

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Steve
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 01:24 
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Ello ello :)

Happy New Year to everyone!

Just a quickie: I caught news of this limiter business (and saw that Claire got to have her input - yaaay) and some of the propaganda used within the pro-arguments irritated me, so here I am again.
I know Claire touched upon the zombie issue, but I don't know if anyone has brought up the following:

- how can 100% adoption of such a policy “reduce injury accidents by 29%” when the Stats19 report summary show that only 5% of all accidents (or even 12% of all fatals) involved a driver exceeding the speed limit? (and those figures include the joyriders, the improperly registered cars and police chases – the very same groups who will go to lengths to ensure they won’t be affected by this proposed policy anyway)

- what would the effect be on motorway SRCs (sleep related crashes) if drivers were forced to go even slower than today's traffic speeds? Stats19 analysis shows that 19% of all motorway crashes are SRC related, that portions rising to 29-45% during the small hours – the period where such a limiter would be most ‘relied upon’ (“Road Safety Research Report No. 52, Sleep-Related Crashes on Sections of Different Road Types in the UK (1995–2001)” ). The portion suffering SRC related accidents is obviously MUCH greater than the portion of accidents where a driver was in excess of the limit. All else equal: would enforcing motorway drivers to go slower still, meaning less stimulation for a longer time duration - a double whammy!!, end up worsening the overall accident rate? Should we not review the critical speed limits first before launching into an enforced speed scheme?

edit: oh, I've moved to London, I can see that I should update my profile!
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Johnnytheboy
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 19:32 
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Does anyone know what effect speed limiters on HGVs had on accident rates when introduced?
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Toltec
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 19:42 
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smeggy wrote:

edit: oh, I've moved to London, I can see that I should update my profile!


Hi Smeggy, where abouts? I am down in Orpington.

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Mole
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 00:57 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
Does anyone know what effect speed limiters on HGVs had on accident rates when introduced?


I'm trying to find this out too. I'm sure Paul had a graph of HGV KSIs for the few years before and after speed limiters became mandatory but I'm damned if I can find it! I think it showed an initial drop the year after introduction, follwed by a climb back to where they were in the few years that followed.

This, (if it's true!) would fit my theory that anything that makes driving conditions "different" transiently makes things safer as everyone pays a bit more attention until they get used to it. After that, they become blase and the accidents start happening all over again but maybe by a slightly different mechanism. It's a variation on the old "nobody hurts themselves the first time they use a chainsaw" theory.
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Steve
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 01:20 
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toltec wrote:
Hi Smeggy, where abouts? I am down in Orpington.

I'm at Sunbury, the top end of the M3. I no longer need to commute to work :D
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