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Like me, Mr electrician who carries half a ton or so of tools and supplies which are somewhat difficult to transport by bus, train or bicycle, yet for being so pig-headed as to not use these modes of transport I still incur the charge.

So I'll just bang my charges up to the businesses I work for within the toll zone; as will all the other services they need- and what do you think will happen?

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

one side of this campaign think that the non car owners forgot to vote. However most of the non car owners I know do as many miles as a car passenger as they do on public transport. No cars, no free lifts!

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Yes, according to this article from Local Transport Today, households without cars make more trips by car than by public transport:

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Very good of you to paint me, my family, my work colleagues and my neighbours as selfish and unconcerned by the consequences of their vote. Be assured that it has been very much a topic of discussed from many angles. Most of my reasons for voting no have been mentioned in this thread but seeing as you think I didn't think about anything other than my wallet...Well though I currently have two taxed vehicles I use the bus to get to work and I wouldn't have to cross into the C-Zone to get there, so as thing stand the charge wouldn't directly affect me. So we can dismiss the self interest, well okay not quite being as I'm half a mile outside the C-Zone so would have been likely to have had a negative effect on my homes value (Reason 12). Point is I don't know anyone who just didn't want to pay the charge 'because'. It has generated a huge amount of discussion amongst us all around here and it's insulting to assume otherwise.

And if 'one man one vote' is so deeply flawed what alternative would you prefer?

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

Most of the LCC revenue is spent paying the collectors.
Which is what would happen to the proposed [now an almost dead corpse] MCC.
No doubt some well-known mothers son would be involved in the running of [another] said organisation.
A bit like the revenue that the "safety camera pratnerships" got, and then spent on plasma teles etc...
People have little, if any, faith in politicians.
People are usually right.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article5333590.ece

And maybe the "no" vote was not a vote against the con charge, but a vote against better public transport ?

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

I would prefer a system where constituencies of 50 to 100 thousand people each elect a representative every four years. These representatives then foregather in the capital city and debate the issues of the day, balancing the interests of one group against another against the good of society as a whole. When making technical decisions they would consult with the leading experts of the day. To hold the chamber to account I would have second group elected or appointed for life to oversee and review their decisions.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I never suggested that you didn't discuss the matter ; just that the discussions were dominated by short term thinking. All the discussions I have taken part in have been. But that might be skewed by the fact that my discussion has been mainly with the disenfranchised - commuters who would be affected, for better or worse, by the decision but, not living in Manchester, having no say in the matter

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Why should people who live outside Manchester be given a vote. It’s the people of Manchester who the vote affects as they are the people who have to live there. If someone like me who lives outside Manchester had been given the vote, then I probably would have voted against it, not because I would be thinking of the people who live in Manchester but, because it would only affect me if I had to travel to Manchester, i.e. shopping or working. A bit selfish don’t you think?

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

So, not much change from what we have.
Just smaller constituencies.
The experts would, presumably, be picked to give the wanted [not wanted by us] viewpoint that the elected representatives need to reach the decision they want to reach, not necessarily the best decision but the needed decision.
A bit like AGW, where the experts used are not expert in climate (etc) but are pretty good at saying the right things and filling their wallets ?
As a general rule-of-thumb, politicians and experts have a poor record in getting any aspect of social need right.
Which brings us back to totalitarianism.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Because they have to pay the charge in order to get to work. No taxation without representation might be a 250 year old concept but it still has much to commend it.

Also we would benefit from an improved public transport.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

True; but they do better than non experts

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

No, they do not.
You're confusing social change needed for good, with social change needed by the Great and Good.
What is needed by society is not the same as what is (seen as) needed by those driving the agenda for social change.
You may consider that the social needs of the country require the population to be reduced.
How would that be done ?
Lower the birth rate ?
Of course, that would work in lowering the rise of population. And with stringent limits placed on the quantity of children born it would eventually lower the population. With appalling consequences, eventually.
The only way of lowering the population (long term) is by increasing the death rate. Which is not what people want to hear !
Social needs driving change are not best met by being driven by legislation.
However, since we are now at the start of a rather massive, and global, campaign to initiate social change we will have to accept that it will (eventually) lead to those appalling consequences arriving.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

True.. that seems to be the case per Ted's updates as pasted from the Manchester/Bolton/Bury press. I gather from my own brother and sister who serve with GMP as well as pals down there - who do include Ted's two sisters and one brother who live in the Manchester area .. that Bury/Trafford and Stockport councils were voting against the charge anyway .. with Bolton wavering.

Oldham was being sold the system on the tram link - which was not even part of the TiF package this had already been signed, sealed and delivered before the TiF proposals as I understand from a police pal who works in the Oldham area.


Folk in Lancs/Cheshire/Derbyshire all wanted a say as they would have had to have paid that charge .. as would the Mad Cats and self when visiting friends down there... and leaving for home in the tratime traffic .. or paying the occasional work related visit in the Peak periods .. which were revised only because the protests emerged back in 2007 when they originally proposed a continuous charge and a "tag n pay" system.

The problem as I see it was that Central Manchester alone would have the extra buses. Nothing of any benefit was being given to the rest of the area and once clause in this scheme did state that all in Manchester would pay a levy on council tax as well as a congestion charge if venturing a yard within the zoned areas.

I think then from reading all the bumph in the press courtesy of the Mad Doc - that the improvements had not been thought through to the satisfaction of the public - many of whom would be affected by this increased outlay at a time when jobs are scarce and congestion may well take care of itself as the recession bites.


We are noticing less traffic and less queues in the shops around here ...


and this appears to be reflected even in Manchester per the pals who live there.. in Bolton..(Bromley Cross/Eegerton/Turton) .. Bury ... Worsley.. Bramhall.. Poynton.. Cheadle Hulme... .. Oldham.. all saying the traffic is not that congested .. and more like "school hols traffic"


I think the fact that money is tight also made a decision to put Manchester in debt with a loan which required pay back via a congestion charge as its criteria was a bad idea .. and one which Cambridge will take into account (and .. yep .. there are a bunch of really wild Swiss medics based down there and one of the Mad Doc's older brothers also resides down that way - so I guess "fur will fly" down there too ) . Bristol is another city considering a bid for TiF loaning.. and I gather this city has been watching Manchester closely.

Durham has had one charge for years .. BEFORE LONDON! Only the old quarter incurs the charge which is very nominal and it was only intorduced after Durham built plenty of cheap Park/Ride carparks around the outskirts in the same way as Canterbury and Oxford (which city has those bollards to keep traffic out at peak times.

Now Oxford council tax payers do pay for those buses and I think 60p for a 24 hour park plus a £2 return bus ticket is pretty good value overall.. but they do pay a levy on council tax .. same as Durham does.

All pay. All get a benefit in kind. Much fairer really than expecting those who need to work in a town centre to fund the rest of the county. .. and that was the real nub of this angry issue in Mnchester as I interpret the story to date from the pasted news items on this thread.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Aplogies for dredging up //

Writer to the MEN from Calderdale (outskirts of Oldham?) writes that he feels “unfairly treated” as he did not have a vote even though he works in Manchester

He read the MEN’s sub-editor on his reasons for voting “NOPE” and came to the conclusion that whilst the NO campaign argued more for the drivers – he found it rather significant that those who use the public transport just did not believe that a “yes” vote would have delivered given current policies anyway.

( Arguments for the improved tram/train services was not helped today by a power cut which per the MEN’s website stopped all trams and trains anyway…)

In fact this reader writes with the crux of his point being in the last sentence of his letter.. and one which Manchester needs an answer for






By the way - did anyone else also read the reservations from Essex "designated trial council" over this. I think we saw stories relating in all tabloids today

Folk are not at all happy with "tag.. track .. pay" from top to bottom

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Just two small thoughts:
Given the proof that other areas have found solutions without an extra tax is it surprising that Mancs vote 'sod off' when the Minister said there was no plan B and they'd take the cash to a town that would comply -Nurrr!! Mancs don't respond well to a threat. How to win friends and influence people.

And back when the government withdrew the funding for the full tram expansion the then minister - Kim Howells - said that Crossrail would still go ahead as, 'there are lots of people living in London'. So Mr Howell what are all those ape like bi-peds in the provinces?
BTW Crossrail is costing at least 16 billion!

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

To be fair I think Crossrail is more of a benefit to those wanting to go from West to East (or vice versa) but currently have to negotiate London rather than those seeking to travel within the city.