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I'm afraid I wasn't a big user of the train entwork until after BR was replaced with the private companies. However I understand from it's reputation that it wasn't a great example of how to run a railway!

I was thinking along the lines of Rigpig and those railway networks that seem to work so well abroad. My sister spent several years working in Japan and constantly raved about how great theirs was. My own experience of the Italian system has been very favourable and the TGV in France has a good international reputation, what stopped BR doing the equivalent here? Probably something as simple as inept management! Not difficult to fix, with the right will...

Yes.
That's going to happen ?
That means that the inept management they have first has to recognise its own shortcomings, and then "fall onto their swords" to solve the problem.
I may have to accept that British Airways management (some of them) were forced to accept they were useless, and go, but that does not mean that "the passenger comes second (or worse) rail companies" will do the same.
The first, and last, resort of English Management is to blame the workforce.
Of course, they cannot accept that a bad workforce only mirrors the management of the company.
Mind you, since many are being priced-out of car driving, and thence forced onto PT as a "second best" compromise, it may well be that no improvement will be done because "it works anyway"

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Long-distance commuting is nothing new – don't forget that 100 years ago it was commonplace to commute 50+ miles from Brighton to London by train. And the well-off were flying to New York for a weekend as soon as the technology was available to allow them to do it - and travelling at a more leisurely pace on ocean liners before that.

I do feel that a lot of the criticism of "hypermobility" stems from a slightly snobbish resentment that what was once the preserve of the rich and cultured is now open to the hoi polloi. A tour of Italy to visit art galleries is one thing, a trip to Disney World in Florida something else entirely.


That just underlines my point that increased travel opportunities broaden the mind But obviously different people will have different priorities as to how they utilise those freedoms.

As an aside, I have never had any objection to levying a similar rate of fuel tax on aircraft as applies to land transport, but I recognise there are very significant practical problems in so doing.


But in this context surely "excessive" is an entirely subjective concept. If people's economic preferences result in something you don't personally like, then it's just a fact of life. I might think there's an "excessive" amount of rap music, but I don't go about trying to get it taxed or banned.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Y'know Guys, I really do have to come to the defence of British Rail here...........

See where you disagree..........

In 1945, the private railways where bankrupt (as was the country), run down(ditto), Knackered , and bombed to hell.............

The Americans (finally) agreed to help us with a loan........with conditions and a nice fat interest rate for 60yrs.
Massive spending on our infrastructure was not therefore possible because A: The Labour Government had got in, and "Nationalised railways" was viewed in America as: "a Communist" move..... (Lord elpus)Alleyullyah!........and B: they wanted the half American "Winston" in charge anyway.

The Germans and others had had examples of diesel and electric traction for decades before.....and after the war they had many US Dollars thrown at them to show the Russians how much better the American system was....and American traction know how was used there.

it was clearly the future direction, yet only the farsighted "Southern Railway" in Britain adopted it earlier.

IMO, the changeover from steam power to diesel and electric was not handled well here. I believe that "evolution" is far better than "revolution". For one, it avoids things like strikes when you propose to chuck 30,000 people on the dole all at once. it's not a good idea...is it?

In 1975, I attended the 150yrs Celebration of the railways at Shildon, just North of Darlington, and the birthplace of the railways of the world. Now whilst I would agree that our Steam locomotives where the finest ever! The Management wasn't........The workforce was experienced, they'd proved that from 1939-1945! All that they asked for was TLC........

Instead, they got 20 odd years of lack of funding just so that some little Tory prat could come along and say: "Look everyone.......see how Nationalisation doesn't work!"........."Vote Tory! ..and We'll make it better and cheaper!" roll: Yes! It really did take that long to degrade the service enough.

As I said before ...I attended the Shildon 150yrs Celebration in 1975. There were hundreds of British rail special trains from all over the country there and they all had to be routed, parked up....and run without failure, which would cause disruption to regular scheduled services. IMO, the organistation that day of British Rail was SUPERB!...... IMO, They showed their metal that day.........anyone else there? Do you agree?

Finally...........Do you all realise that you are subsidising the private rail companies more now in real terms than you did British Rail?

AND!...........When Gordon decides to tax the motorist more........the private rail company boardrooms quiver with delight! because they see that they too can charge more for their services even though it's not justified!

The great "privatisation" revolution I believe is coming to it's crunch!.......................
Just What is it?...........A Public service?........ or for private profit? Just remember who privatised it in the first place.

Oh! And that goes for the buses too (where these days...they turn up: "If they feel like it")..................(except London...[I wonder why?])

Long distance commuting may not be new, but what is new is the scale, ease and modal choice with which it can be carried out. It’s the sheer number of people wanting to travel long distances, using transport with such unique issues, on such a regular basis that causes the problems we’re currently seeing.



I think you may have a point about the snobbery thing. But having said that, may be the reason it was reserved for those who could afford it (ie the rich and cultured, my socialist leanings mean I don’t often put those two together!) was a “good thing”. They were after all probabl being forced to pay more towards the full cost of their particular modal choice. I’m not sure that spending a couple of hundred quid on a flight to New York comes anywhere close to the real costs associated with that flight. Whereas when it was the preserve of the rich maybe it did?

RE: Disney World Florida/Italian Art Galleries, in my opinion the distance and means of transport is the more important aspect. Swap it around to Disneyland Paris and East Coast US art galleries and the same arguments apply. The reason for the trip shouldn’t enter into it!



You’re suggesting my mind is limited?! Fair enough, you’re probably right, it is true I have never been out of Europe. Not sure that makes my POV less valid though. What I was questioning was how people see those freedoms, and whether the values they place on them are really justifiable to themselves, never mind anyone else!



Surely this just reinforces the “flying is the preserve of the rich” argument though? Shouldn’t the same argument apply to all forms of transport? I think we may have to face up to the inevitable -, some forms of transport are going to be available only to those who can afford them, this potentially could/will include private motor vehicles… …interesting times ahead, if we’re to tackle the “very significant practical problems” you mention.




Not necessarily, excessive use could be interpreted in a number ways, all related to the negative effects that car use generates. I listed a few of them earlier on in this thread, but just for the sake of this debate: There will come a point where car use in certain urban areas causes so much congestion that it in turn causes more financial repercussions on businesses than the amount of finance it generates. In this context I would argue that it is economically “excessive”. Would that be subjective? Couldn’t similar arguments be used for potential local environmental and social effects (obviously appreciating that these effects are far harder to quantify)?

Draco, you know far too much about the history of railways!

I'd heard about the railways costing more to the taxpayer post-privatisation than prior to it but I wasn't sure if it was true or not. I wouldn't find it too difficult to believe!

I think more the way we expect folk to work. I see no reason or logic as to why we cannot have a flexi-time system - and a "work from home" a couple of days per week, given the internet etc.

I am sure this would ease the commute for all of us.

I am also sure this will help those of us with families (Admittedly my work is a little .. er.. specialised and so is Wildy's .. but we do sometimes do the research type part of our work from the home "lair" and "den" (leave you to work out which of us has the "lair" )

But I am equally sure many routine admin tasks can be done from home all the same. I think we are not making the most of our computers, useful e-mail and internet facility here. After all folk phone or e-mail colleagues from the desk next door.. so why not from home to home? With just a couple of "core days" at the office per week to keep "social interpersonal skills and proper "steering" meetings."


I agree that, as a society, we are not perhaps making the most of our available resources..




Jazz has a rather wide enquiring mind ... she can discuss any subject without it descending into argument. She works as a "samaritan" too. As does Ju-Ju.. but Jazz to my mind has a "sharper mind". Wildy and Krissi (mention her as you have chatted to that one on C+.. (She's a nice gal really. I think it might be a lingo problem The Swiss do not have the same command as we do after all ) but my wife and sister-in-law reckon my sister Jazz to be the more feisty "Red Rum" to Ju-Ju's "Desert Orchid" type

If they stood for office .. we think they'd win due to personal charisma and ability to woo the voters We have this appraisal from the councillors they do know and socialise with. We do attend their family "bits of dos"

But so far.. they have managed to persuade some councillors pro- toll tax that there may be a thorn in this I gather both sisters came across a councillor who cycles to work. They discussed bicycles and cycling skills and driving... and then like true white sharks .. circled .. He had no chance.. He agreed with them : rotfl: over the toll tax..


You think we are "horrid" in that we try to smart-alec some folk in some keyboard "jollities" You not met my off-line family They do at least change opinion





I am based in North West. I have a commitment here. Besides I LOVE living in Cumbria -despite the local scam-pratsters

I did have an opportunity to work in USA .. as did Wildy. We would have been based in New England .. had we taken this offer. But I have kids here.. three undergraduates and our other children's and fostered children's lives to consider.

Also.. we just love the home we struggled to bring back to "pleasant". Fill you in on background.. when we married - we bought the place at "auction" and paid quite a small sum. We then invested heavily in bringing this property back to decently normal. We own a Grade Two listed and are subject to umpteen regulations

But we managed to bring about a family home and a facility to accommodate tourist guests as a sideline here



I know this. Some folk say I do leave them at the start point.

They "catch up with me later" I suppose my mind thinks a heck of a lot quicker than my keyboard or e-mail skills

At most "work"meetings .. I say what I think to be obvious at the outset.. they then waste hours of proper time . only to find after some lengthy debate . they conclude what I said in the first minute was actually OK I tell you.. I find the lack of common sense or blatanly obvious to all but a "amoebic moron" beyond logic at time I am not including you here I am simply observing the meetings which go around in circles only to conclude the initial common sense views here

I think Paul also found this to be the case It can be frustrating. I have a fairly placid approach I win through eventually as regards daftness on the part of the muppet NHS management

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Bt the way Peyote..

We do not ever waste food or fuel. We do grow some veggies here. We shop at farm shops/markets. We buy from thrift shops and discard old clothing to these places too.

We always have done so. I only replace stuff when I cannot repair it or it's just not viable to do so. Basically I will use until worn out and then dispose of thoughtfully. I do not discard this year's washing machine, computer ..cooker whatever for the next fashionable product.

Clothing? We will buy "classics" mostly.. and discard only when worn to excess.. usually to the bank which unpicks and completey recycles :winkL

I think I thus have a very caring "waste not //../want no" ethic. As does Claire .. whom Jazz tell me .. fight a waiter in restaurant for a "doggy bag" as they provided more food on the plate than the ladies could eat that night

Claire und Paul.. they lived on shoestring budget. They never wasted one penny as a result. I think this should be made public. The late Paul und his grieving partner . still in shock.. valued money. They were/are perhaps a lot greener in lifestyle than most because budget commands here Needs must at the end of the day.

My needs must as we have so many kids.. we sometimes worry what to do!

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Draco

You talk a lot of sense (even if I dont always agree with it IYSWIM )

History is like Science. Diferent people can make difernt conclusions based on the same information. I actually believe that it is important that people should be allowed to do so.( I learn the most from people who disagree with me!)

(As an aside. Countries that should be distrusted are those that have "Official versions" of history that one can actually be imprisoned for questioning! This is actually not uncommon on the continant! Scary! another good reason for quiting the EUSSR!)

Back to the railways..

Hmmn,,

An interesting analysis, and probably not far off the mark (I have never really believed that the US were our “friends”, I suspect they rubbed their hands with glee during WW2 at the prospect of royally ripping us off in the name of helping us!)

However I might add (though I doubt if you agree )

I always remember BR working really quite well, when it worked!

The public’s perception of poor service at the time was not the “railway service” as such,

It was the endless strikes! I am willing to make a small wager that after each interminable strike (always timed to cause the maximum public inconvenience-like buggering up peoples holiday travel and so on) there was a surge in new car sales. IE another group of customers who would never use the trains again because they no longer believed that the workforce could be relied upon to deliver the service that they needed.

(Like with the miners strike, there is only so much denial of service that customers will put up with in the name of “Saving the industry”! Drax, started in the mid 70’s and completed in 1986, was the last coal power station built in the UK! You do not secure your customer base, and industry future, by refusing to supply the customers with what they need! They will simply go elsewhere!)

Any operation like busses and trains relies on making a small margin on a large turnover. The loss of as little as 5% of the customer base can easily push them into major loss making enterprises, this was particularly the case for the branch lines. Despite being nationalised the government of the day could only justify the taxpayer funding if they could show that the trains were actually being used. The public became increasingly unwilling to pay for an unreliable service of empty trains.

Of course once the cuts in “un-economic” lines started this affected the, then, economic lines further up the system which then suffered losses in turn.

The branch lines may have been “Loss making”, but the people who used them contributed towards the magic 5% on the busier lines, once the system started to implode its decline was inevitable until we get to the point where we are now with essentially intercity lines and urban transport systems being pretty much all that is left.

Perhaps surprisingly, I actually think that nationalised /regulated private monopoly actually has benefits. But it must be done for the right reasons and I believe that the nationalisations of the 1950’s were for political/ideological/cynical reasons rather than practical ones and that is why they were ultimately doomed to failure.

On a more general note, If you are going to have them, It is vital that nationalised industries are reliable. The public will soon lose faith in them if they are not! And will refuse to bankroll them if all they get in return is endless strikes and whinging union leaders! (Many years ago I knew a Spanish girl, at about the time that Spain was moving towards “democracy”, She was not happy! “With Franco Trains ran on time and Women were safe in the street” and she meant it too! These things matter to people and Politicians (and union leaders) ignore it at their peril!)

Thatcher in 79 won her election on an openly admitted policy to smash the big unions. Everybody knew it. That was what most people wanted; by 1979 most people were thoroughly pissed off with the endless strikes. That’s why they voted for her with a huge majority. AND 5 years later she had an even bigger one!!

Is our current situation as regards the provision of utilities/transport a good one?

Well, no actually!

But I will reserve that for a later post!

Oh, PS

As for the Busses, When I was a kid back in the 60’s it was generally accepted that there were no buses on Thursday afternoons! (at least where I lived)

Would you care to suggest why that might have been??

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Well, you too could have a strike-free railway if you honoured pay agreements, without then producing staffing changes that negated the pay agreement.
No-strike deals are great, if there is any trust between the workforce and the management of same. Unfortunately, the rail companies cannot be believed. It is also worth pointing out that many of the cases of industrial action are to do with safety disputes. Like, the workforce would like to go home of a night. In one piece. Maybe you should also like to consider the 4 guys killed by a runaway maintenance wagon, on which the brakes had been deliberately fixed so that they appeared to be working, while being totally useless
How about the passengers killed because of difficult to see signalling ?
Which the companies had been warned about many times.
I will not even mention the tens of thousands suffering ill health because of poor working conditions. Fortunately, the unions are very helpful in claiming compensation and providing other help as well. Meanwhile the cbi continues to lobby for the H&S acts to be revoked, claiming it costs companies too much. Crap, it costs them little. They just recognise that killing the workforce is too expensive to them, and it pushes their insurance costs up when their insurance company realises they're going to be stuck paying money out in compensation.

Face it, the real reason people do not use trains is because they just cannot be bothered. Until it gets too hard to drive. Or too expensive. So, with really high fuel costs (going to be over £1.50 by xmas, forecast £2.00 by this time next year) and more congestion charges (Manchester is going ahead, never mind what the [local] electorate want) people are going to have hard choices to make. Taxes on car operation and ownership are only going up, and it does not matter which party is in power. The truck operators can also moan, not that it will make any difference. Chatting to a guy I know tonight. Contract truck driver. Drove from MK to Manchester empty. Drove from Manchester to Sussex, empty. Drove back to Mk, empty. Loads cancelled. Some real logistical planning there. As he said "Next time I'm going to phone the places up myself"
After listening to some prat on tv saying how hard things were with high fuel costs....Hmmm...like vat refunded, and the cost of fuel as an operating expense. Face it...parked-up by the side of the M1 today....just look at all those empty and underloaded trucks zipping past....

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Pay day?

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

As Mad Doc said - it's lifestyles and choice to live or move to "school catchment area"

For some - it's cheaper to commute than move house (assuming they can" Would be very congested all the same if we all chose to live near the purpose built business park )

But buses do not go to these places as the return trips would not be viable once they dropped off the 9-5 brigades

So again = we are back to a need for employers and schools to use a flexi-system instead of stringenlty fixed universal "office hours for all"



But then a trip to Disneyland Paris can still be combined with a decent meal in the Latin Quarter or an evening chez Maxim and an afternoon at either the Louvre or Monet's Garden




We seldom venture outside Europe ourselves .. but have made the occasional trip to USA to visit relatives over there. The Mad Cats spent a week over there deciding whether or not to accept a career move out there. They decided against for family reasons and a love of Europe.




Unfortunately - business and jobs build up and satellite around these urban areas. Given the internet - a sizable chunk of these could conceivably work from home and travel at different times instead of congesting for hours at peak morning/evening.

DO I agree with charging £185 per person to park on the works' car park? Unless there was a firm guarantee to plough this into public transport with LOW fares and use any surplus to pay for other USEFUL SERVICES ...maybe..

But then we all know that public offices squander cash on pointless projects and there will be zero guarantee. So no. Not really convinced as to "motives"


. I think the best option would be for employers to look at their immediate needs and use the resources such as the internet/work occasionally from home and work to a more flexible work time too. A more local recruitment policy would also help. I fail to understand why a teacher will travel to teach at a school 25 miles away and one from that town will travel to teach the same subject at the other teacher's more local school :roll; The same applies to office staff too.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Back to US Marshall Aid after WW2. I seem to recall reading an article in the Grauniad ages ago which suggested that the UK used the cash to set up the NHS and Welfare State, whereas Europe used it to rebuild its bombed out infrastructures and flattened towns.

We might have had an NHS service heralded as the beacon (sadly no longer due to mismanaged cash and to many fraudsters "playing the benefits system" ) - but we are reaping the seeds sown by decades of neglecting public transport in all reality. (As said - our problem with the Welfare State/NHS has come about by a host of other problems - partly by unwieldy and incompetent bureaucracy, complacency and those lazy bone-idle types who just know how to play and defraud the system )

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Thats the one!

Of course being "Unionised" and the 60's nobody could say Boo to the bus drivers who buggererd off down the pub on thursday lunchtime to drink their pay. We mere customers just had to put up with it! (It wasnt as if we had any choice after all)

(No wonder the, oft maligned, "Management" lacked enthusiasim)

but by 1979 everybody had had enough!

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Which underlines the inherent problem of nationalised public transport operation - Bob Crow et al can hold the public to ransom.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I know an Engineer that has no written proof but does know and advised officially that they should stop this non-sense. They did go and change it but the authority had authorised this outrageous behaviour.

Think back to the late '8's though, do you recall when they started taking away parking meters and replacing them with double yellow lines ! There was an outcry, that was squashed very quickly.

If a route is busy we naturally, like sheep find our own way. we look for alternatives in many ways - change our working times, our route, our method, our work even. We naturally decide for ourselves what we are prepared to accept, and then do it. We do not need any authority imposing draconian measures, it's citizens, it's dangerous (no side effects researched whatsoever), it is insulting, and it is attempting to control something which self regulates anyway.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Quite. I suspect that even if public transport could deliver a similar level of utility to personal transport (*) most people would still want to retain their cars for just that reason

(*which it cannot. To go back to the "golden age" would require FAR MORE than "just" having frequent, comprehensive and reliable bus and train services FAR FAR more!)

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

A read of this may make things somewhat clearer.

Things remain the same today, supporting a role we are unable to fulfill at a high cost (new nukes and planes that are priced at ten times their real worth)
the nhs still works, but is hampered by having a management structure best suited to the civil service (over manned and unproductive).

Similarly, industrial management is hampered by being undereducated in their field of endeavour.

More delays on the rail network are caused by "engineering" works (replacing things broken ten years ago but only being repaired properly now) than through industrial action, a lot of which is over safety anyway....

I remind you that the VAST majority of strikes are legal....as in the unions have gone through the STATUTORY procedure to try and solve the problems first.

You don't get many strikes anyway....why stop work for no pay when you get 40K a year... (engine driver newly qualified)

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Breathtakingly incompetent management and a terminally stupid and greedy bunch of trades unionists were BR's downfall. Most ordinary railwaymen were hard-working and dedicated to their jobs, but between them management and unions b****red the whole thing up. A nationalised railway a la Continent is not impossible, but - judging by history - it ain't the British way!

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Save a cow - eat a vegetarian

I read something in the paper (shorter version here) about this today, quoting someone on Nottingham City Council, who said the money taken from companies for providing staff parking will be used improving public transport improvements and "managing congestion" (my bold).

So... while in theory the money will be used to provide shiny new trams etc., in reality it will be used for what passes these days as congestion-busting measures, like building traffic islands next to bus stops, cycle lanes no-one wants, and retiming traffic lights to let less cars through.

Or am I being overly cynical? No. I'm willing to bet a shiny pound coin that not a single penny will be spent reducing congestion for private transport.