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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 17:17 
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prof beard wrote:
Rigpig wrote:

I tend to be a little harsher in my assessment of the average driver than others around here, but IMHO the safety record of Britain's motorways is achieved 'in spite of' rather than 'because of' the way the public chooses to drive on them.

I am constantly amazed at how willing drivers are to leave themselves absolutely no margin for maneouvre at all if things go wrong. They drive periliously close to other vehicles, squeeze between small gaps, have little or no appreciation for the capabilities of other vehicle groups or the needs of other road users, dive headlong into developing situations because they aren't looking far enough ahead, lunge across lanes for the off and on ramps and, of course, demonstrate appaling lane discipline.


I must agree with your perception here - that makes understanding why the motorways have fewer accidents even more important?


Prof,

Having driven in and around Barcelona, Lyon, Turin and Las Palmas, I would say that we are very well behaved drivers in comparison.

C.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:26 
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Cooler wrote:
civil engineer wrote:
What complete rubbish,

the whole thread.

Its simple, keep left unless overtaking

anything else is rubbish[/u][/b]


Civil Engineer,

So the way that 66% of the motoring public choose to drive on motorways is rubbish?

Maybe, but they still do it. Understanding why they do it is not a waste of time.

C.


I said I was going to ignore this thread, but I can't ignore this one: where do you get the 66% from? Please, please don't tell me it's from 2/3 of the lanes = 2/3 of drivers not keeping to the left unless overtaking - that would be daft!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:23 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
Cooler wrote:
civil engineer wrote:
What complete rubbish,

the whole thread.

Its simple, keep left unless overtaking

anything else is rubbish[/u][/b]


Civil Engineer,

So the way that 66% of the motoring public choose to drive on motorways is rubbish?

Maybe, but they still do it. Understanding why they do it is not a waste of time.

C.


I said I was going to ignore this thread, but I can't ignore this one: where do you get the 66% from? Please, please don't tell me it's from 2/3 of the lanes = 2/3 of drivers not keeping to the left unless overtaking - that would be daft!


Johnny,

I am extrapolating from the mornings survey work I detailed earlier in this thread. In that survey I noted that approx 66% of the 1000 drivers observed travelling in L2 and L3 in the half mile of three lane motorway under observation did not make any attempt to move into L1, despite there being space to do so in the length of motorway under observation.

Of course this small survey cannot be generalised beyond the observation area, so I would have to preface my remarks with the 'motoring public observed in the observation area'.

You have rightly pointed up the weaknesses of generalisation in debate.

The question remains. Why did the drivers driving in the observation area drive as they did?

c.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:42 
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This is a true account of what happened to me driving east along the M4 from Swindon to get home. Traffic was flowing quite well, but there were sporadic MLMs. I was behind a car in L3 passing one such MLM. Let's say we were doing... well, less than 91mph. :D After passing the MLM, the car in front moved to L2 and became a MLM himself! I moved to L1 which was empty for the next ¾ mile. But then the chap I'd been slipstreaming started slowing down. In fact he slowed to a speed less than that of the MLM we'd recently passed, and the MLM caught up! Unwilling to "do a squirrel" and pass my companion on the left, I slowed down with him. But then as well as traffic behind catching up, I had lorries looming ahead in L1. I was boxed in.

I'd have been better off staying in L2, or L3...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 14:11 
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Cooler wrote:

Johnny,

I am extrapolating from the mornings survey work I detailed earlier in this thread. In that survey I noted that approx 66% of the 1000 drivers observed travelling in L2 and L3 in the half mile of three lane motorway under observation did not make any attempt to move into L1, despite there being space to do so in the length of motorway under observation.

Of course this small survey cannot be generalised beyond the observation area, so I would have to preface my remarks with the 'motoring public observed in the observation area'.

You have rightly pointed up the weaknesses of generalisation in debate.

The question remains. Why did the drivers driving in the observation area drive as they did?

c.


That was the same logic used to 'prove' that 40% of bikers evade road tax...

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 Post subject: For Squirell
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 13:46 
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I was watching "Police Camera Action" this week, and there was a car on a motorway driving at high speed in L1, undertaking L2 and L3. I think the speed was said to have been around 100.

He was caught by the following police car, and ended up in court where he was
  • banned from driving
  • fined £1000
  • ordered to retake his test before he could drive again.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 20:18 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Cooler wrote:

Johnny,

I am extrapolating from the mornings survey work I detailed earlier in this thread. In that survey I noted that approx 66% of the 1000 drivers observed travelling in L2 and L3 in the half mile of three lane motorway under observation did not make any attempt to move into L1, despite there being space to do so in the length of motorway under observation.

Of course this small survey cannot be generalised beyond the observation area, so I would have to preface my remarks with the 'motoring public observed in the observation area'.

You have rightly pointed up the weaknesses of generalisation in debate.

The question remains. Why did the drivers driving in the observation area drive as they did?

c.


That was the same logic used to 'prove' that 40% of bikers evade road tax...


Sixy,

If it was observed that 40% of drivers were not displaying a valid tax disc on a certain stretch of road for a certain period then this would 'prove' that 40% of drivers were not displaying a valid tax disc on a certain stretch of road for a certain period. Generalisations are another matter.

C.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 08:40 
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Ehem...

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... hlight=ved

So you're 'generalisation' that 66% of the motoring public drive a certain way wasn't 'proven' by your observation of a small section of motorway for a couple of hours?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:25 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Ehem...

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... hlight=ved

So you're 'generalisation' that 66% of the motoring public drive a certain way wasn't 'proven' by your observation of a small section of motorway for a couple of hours?


Sixy,

Yes, as I noted in a previous reply to another poster, this observation is correct.

Have you ever been able to say "My bad" ?

C.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:51 
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Cooler wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
Ehem...

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... hlight=ved

So you're 'generalisation' that 66% of the motoring public drive a certain way wasn't 'proven' by your observation of a small section of motorway for a couple of hours?


Sixy,

Yes, as I noted in a previous reply to another poster, this observation is correct.

Have you ever been able to say "My bad" ?

C.



Ever heard of an anomaly?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 14:39 
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Cooler wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
Cooler wrote:
civil engineer wrote:
What complete rubbish,

the whole thread.

Its simple, keep left unless overtaking

anything else is rubbish[/u][/b]


Civil Engineer,

So the way that 66% of the motoring public choose to drive on motorways is rubbish?

Maybe, but they still do it. Understanding why they do it is not a waste of time.

C.


I said I was going to ignore this thread, but I can't ignore this one: where do you get the 66% from? Please, please don't tell me it's from 2/3 of the lanes = 2/3 of drivers not keeping to the left unless overtaking - that would be daft!


Johnny,

I am extrapolating from the mornings survey work I detailed earlier in this thread. In that survey I noted that approx 66% of the 1000 drivers observed travelling in L2 and L3 in the half mile of three lane motorway under observation did not make any attempt to move into L1, despite there being space to do so in the length of motorway under observation.

Of course this small survey cannot be generalised beyond the observation area, so I would have to preface my remarks with the 'motoring public observed in the observation area'.

You have rightly pointed up the weaknesses of generalisation in debate.

The question remains. Why did the drivers driving in the observation area drive as they did?

c.



To be scientific and indicative of any trend - you have to observe the pattern of behaviour elsewhere :popcorn: on other similar sample stretches of motorway which match the criteria you are measuring against. A one off observation does not in itself prove that much and could be because they can see they are closing in on slower traffic in L1 on the horizon - and you can see this quite clearly on a straight road like a motorway - or may be aware of motorway merges ahead.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 14:47 
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In Gear wrote:
Cooler wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
Cooler wrote:
civil engineer wrote:
What complete rubbish,

the whole thread.

Its simple, keep left unless overtaking

anything else is rubbish[/u][/b]


Civil Engineer,

So the way that 66% of the motoring public choose to drive on motorways is rubbish?

Maybe, but they still do it. Understanding why they do it is not a waste of time.

C.


I said I was going to ignore this thread, but I can't ignore this one: where do you get the 66% from? Please, please don't tell me it's from 2/3 of the lanes = 2/3 of drivers not keeping to the left unless overtaking - that would be daft!


Johnny,

I am extrapolating from the mornings survey work I detailed earlier in this thread. In that survey I noted that approx 66% of the 1000 drivers observed travelling in L2 and L3 in the half mile of three lane motorway under observation did not make any attempt to move into L1, despite there being space to do so in the length of motorway under observation.

Of course this small survey cannot be generalised beyond the observation area, so I would have to preface my remarks with the 'motoring public observed in the observation area'.

You have rightly pointed up the weaknesses of generalisation in debate.

The question remains. Why did the drivers driving in the observation area drive as they did?

c.



To be scientific and indicative of any trend - you have to observe the pattern of behaviour elsewhere :popcorn: on other similar sample stretches of motorway which match the criteria you are measuring against. A one off observation does not in itself prove that much and could be because they can see they are closing in on slower traffic in L1 on the horizon - and you can see this quite clearly on a straight road like a motorway - or may be aware of motorway merges ahead.


In gear,

Correct. This is why my observation was valuable only in dealing with the specific stretch of motorway I was observing, at the time I was observing it. Generalising from this observation was incorrect and I was mistaken to make the remark that I did. Posters here have correctly pointed out my mistake.

Two points.

1. There were no motorway merges near the stretch I observed.

2. As I was considerably higher up than the drivers (on a bridge), and using binoculars, I can say with confidence that I observed no slower traffic on the horizon from my superior viewing position.

C.

PS - Another small point. Is "closing in on slower traffic in L1 on the horizon" a good reason for staying in L2?


Last edited by Cooler on Sun Mar 23, 2008 15:19, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 14:49 
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Nos4r2 wrote:
Cooler wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
Ehem...

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... hlight=ved

So you're 'generalisation' that 66% of the motoring public drive a certain way wasn't 'proven' by your observation of a small section of motorway for a couple of hours?


Sixy,

Yes, as I noted in a previous reply to another poster, this observation is correct.

Have you ever been able to say "My bad" ?

C.



Ever heard of an anomaly?


Nos,

Do you have an argument to show that I observed an anomaly?

C.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 17:30 
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Cooler wrote:
PS - Another small point. Is "closing in on slower traffic in L1 on the horizon" a good reason for staying in L2?



Possibly - given that at 70 mph - you are covering around 34 yards per second - compared to say 28 yards per second at 60 mph and 24 yards per second at 50 mph. If you are around 75 -77mph mark as most drivers do seem to be - then you have gained on them fairly quickly in reality. :popcorn: Your horizon would be your limit point and fairly in synchrony with the being able to stop safely and very comfortably - without skidding or burning tyre rubber :wink: in the distance you can see to be clear :popcorn: This would be the only justification in remaining in L2 as you would be overtaking traffic you can still see and judge to be at a lower pace than yourself.

As said - will choose L1 as normal unless I intend to overtake and see ahead that there are a lot of vehicles in L1 who are below my very legal speed :wink:

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Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 19:38 
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In Gear wrote:
Cooler wrote:
PS - Another small point. Is "closing in on slower traffic in L1 on the horizon" a good reason for staying in L2?



Possibly - given that at 70 mph - you are covering around 34 yards per second - compared to say 28 yards per second at 60 mph and 24 yards per second at 50 mph. If you are around 75 -77mph mark as most drivers do seem to be - then you have gained on them fairly quickly in reality. :popcorn: Your horizon would be your limit point and fairly in synchrony with the being able to stop safely and very comfortably - without skidding or burning tyre rubber :wink: in the distance you can see to be clear :popcorn: This would be the only justification in remaining in L2 as you would be overtaking traffic you can still see and judge to be at a lower pace than yourself.

As said - will choose L1 as normal unless I intend to overtake and see ahead that there are a lot of vehicles in L1 who are below my very legal speed :wink:


InGear,

This seems to be the crux of the matter. If faster moving drivers in L2 see slower traffic spaced out in L1 such that hopping in and out of L1 would be inconvenient, they may prefer to extend their 'overtaking' for as much as half a mile, which is of course precisely what I observed.

C. .


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 20:34 
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Cooler wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Cooler wrote:
PS - Another small point. Is "closing in on slower traffic in L1 on the horizon" a good reason for staying in L2?



Possibly - given that at 70 mph - you are covering around 34 yards per second - compared to say 28 yards per second at 60 mph and 24 yards per second at 50 mph. If you are around 75 -77mph mark as most drivers do seem to be - then you have gained on them fairly quickly in reality. :popcorn: Your horizon would be your limit point and fairly in synchrony with the being able to stop safely and very comfortably - without skidding or burning tyre rubber :wink: in the distance you can see to be clear :popcorn: This would be the only justification in remaining in L2 as you would be overtaking traffic you can still see and judge to be at a lower pace than yourself.

As said - will choose L1 as normal unless I intend to overtake and see ahead that there are a lot of vehicles in L1 who are below my very legal speed :wink:


InGear,

This seems to be the crux of the matter. If faster moving drivers in L2 see slower traffic spaced out in L1 such that hopping in and out of L1 would be inconvenient, they may prefer to extend their 'overtaking' for as much as half a mile, which is of course precisely what I observed.

C. .


And I would not term this as Middle Lane Hogging. My definition of the MLM is the chap/chappesse who sits there at 50/60 mph and forces other traffic at a legal to tolerated overspeed limit :wink: to move from L 1 to L3 ot overtake.

Er.. note my words - we do have a tolerance margin of error - either way - within safety levels and competency as expected :wink:

However, the real MLM will sit in L2 regardless of traffic condition at a lower speed than warranted. :yikes: This type will attract our attention here just as much as the person driving at an OTT speed/style/standard for our patch :popcorn:

As said - we do have accidents in this area. :( :cry: . No human being can claim not to be accident prone and as we have seen in the thread involving the bolting two year old who ran into a car with tragic consequence - some incidents are just that - pure tragic accidents as was the one which killed the Swiss guy and the one which nearly killed our own lovely Wildy :neko: Cat.

However, we are consistent in actively helping prevent carnage around here. We record lowere than national average KSI stats each year - but higher than average prosecutions for downright offensive driving standards :scratchchin: No accident. :popcorn: We are tolerant on blips - tough on blats :wink:

We will pull up a driver who is driving in professional judgement as a MLM to have a word but not necessarily prosecute - just as we have words with the blatters. Depends degree of blatting and standard observed as to how it gets dealt with. It also depends on the officer's professional judgement - and I think we are pretty much "hitting bull's eye" in this respect :popcorn: or at least our stat returns seem to indicate this :wink: :popcorn:

I think your original point was that you are legally at 70 mph overtaking slower traffic and Mr Frustrated behaved like a :censored: whatever. Nowt wrong with your driving. We might well have had a word with the other idiot though as COAST dictates he should have seen your logic for being in L2. :popcorn:

Note - I am not saying you are incorrect - more that we use L1 if we are limited to a certain speed, do not want to drive above a certain speed - which on a modern motorway should be 55- 60 mph as the considerate minimum in L1 - unless roadworks or congestion dictate otherwise :wink:

We certainly use L1 if nothing to overtake and the road ahead has very little traffic to overtake. :wink:

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Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 00:07 
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Cooler wrote:
If faster moving drivers in L2 see slower traffic spaced out in L1 such that hopping in and out of L1 would be inconvenient, they may prefer to extend their 'overtaking' for as much as half a mile, which is of course precisely what I observed.


Many of us have mentioned here, and in other threads where the MLM topic has arisen, the 10 second rule - namely that moving to your left is a good idea if the gap is large enough to let you stay in that lane for at least 10 seconds. Now, lets say your L2 occupiers were doing 80mph, and that to move into L1 for at least 10 seconds takes 15 seconds in all (allowing 5 seconds to smoothly move into and back out of L1). 15 seconds at 80mph is 1/3rd of a mile, which falls neatly into your "as much as half a mile" observed distances...

So as IG says, drivers like this aren't the ones that most of us would consider to be MLM's, because most of us would be doing exactly the same thing given the same conditions.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 00:16 
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In Gear wrote:

I think your original point was that you are legally at 70 mph overtaking slower traffic and Mr Frustrated behaved like a :censored: whatever. Nowt wrong with your driving. We might well have had a word with the other idiot though as COAST dictates he should have seen your logic for being in L2. :popcorn:



Thanks Ingear.

C.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 00:25 
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Twister wrote:
Cooler wrote:
If faster moving drivers in L2 see slower traffic spaced out in L1 such that hopping in and out of L1 would be inconvenient, they may prefer to extend their 'overtaking' for as much as half a mile, which is of course precisely what I observed.


Many of us have mentioned here, and in other threads where the MLM topic has arisen, the 10 second rule - namely that moving to your left is a good idea if the gap is large enough to let you stay in that lane for at least 10 seconds. Now, lets say your L2 occupiers were doing 80mph, and that to move into L1 for at least 10 seconds takes 15 seconds in all (allowing 5 seconds to smoothly move into and back out of L1). 15 seconds at 80mph is 1/3rd of a mile, which falls neatly into your "as much as half a mile" observed distances...

So as IG says, drivers like this aren't the ones that most of us would consider to be MLM's, because most of us would be doing exactly the same thing given the same conditions.


Twister,

I take your point, but it seems a bit odd that so many drivers stayed out of L1 for the duration of the half mile I observed. I agree that we need a better way to track the full distance covered by L2 and L3 drivers before returning to L1. Maybe I can find a section of motorway with a longer view for my next set of observations. If the bridge is at the top of a hill for example, I could probably track drivers for a couple of miles with my binoculars.

C.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 00:30 
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Cooler wrote:

Nos,

Do you have an argument to show that I observed an anomaly?

C.


An argument? possibly. Can I prove it either way? No. But then, neither can you on one instance of observation :D ie it COULD have been an anomaly as you haven't got the data to prove otherwise.

Does that make sense?

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