Safe Speed Forums

Diesel,

Thanks for the information. From your reply, I take it that you see speeding as less bad than staying in the middle lane longer than necessary for an overtaking manoevre. I think your view is in the majority on this forum.

C.

Robin,

It has taken quite a while to get to this objection, but it has been worth the wait. Yes, a very good way of testing a moral view is to ask "What if everyone did it?".

I agree that if everyone hogged L1, this would have the effect of reducing the efficiency of of a motorway system. So, unless a motorway is clear, or all the lanes are fully in use, it is helpful to others to gravitate quickly into L1 thus leaving L2 and L3 open in the interests of general efficiency.

This was the weak point in my argument. On another thread I have bemoaned the increasing tendency for trucks to make excruciatingly long overtaking manoevres, thus blocking up L2. Again, a weakness in my argument, as it does not follow the tenet "Do as you would be done by."

Fair enough.

C

PS - On an amusing note. I once followed one of the flashers who had caused me to pull into the slow lane. After a few miles, guess where he had stayed. In the middle lane!!

Do as you would be done by?

Cooler - the BMW you spoke of as "getting lost somewhere in L1 as you never saw it again" might just have cut from L3 to L1 because he wished to exit the motorway at next exit or merge into another motorway which start in L1 and even L2 of the main (and frequently a 4-laner at this point) motorway.

Some motorways do have big signs stating "CRAWLER LANE" for huge heavy vehicles. About the only time you could claim L1 to be the "slow lane" as 70 mph for vehicles and 60 mph for the over 3.5 tonne vans/trailers and 50 mph HGV applies to all the lanes However, vehicles which require a speed limiter (afore mentioned large 3.5-7.5 tonne vans, vehicles adapated to carry more than 8 passengers, HGVs, cars with any trailers - are NOT allowed to use L3 of any 3 and more lane motoi#rway - unless L3/L4 are the through secttions at a motoray merge such as M55/M6 for example or sections of M62 and M1 and M4.




If you are overtaking a fleet of vehicles in L1 - then no problems with remaining in L2. Other traffic has L3 if they wish to overtake you after all.

You move back into L1 and continue looking ahead to the limit point horizon - checking ALL mirrors - COASTing as conitinum when you have finished all the overtakes of the HGVs etc you needed to do.

But if the road is completely empty - then there is little need to be in L2.

Quite possibly Mr Frustrated was in L1 and had to pull out into L3 to pass you as he cannot really indertake you in case you decided to move in. He was incorrect to gesticulate like that though His action of calmly overtaking and then very prominently using indicator to L2 and back to L1 at a now steady 70 mph would perhaps have made you more aware that your driving style annoyed another.

You should always evaluate EACH drive you make - because each thing you do out there does affect another person and it's part of the developing C for consideration/courtesty/concentrate skill area tightening


However, it's always amusing to see the "snap to discipline" when the marked car is trundling along our faster roads

PS - if our guys are around the 50-60 mph mark - it's cos they are "sedate larking duties" and expect you to pass them in a sedate, calm and LEGAL manner and not queuing up behind in a jelly like state of mind

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Next time - try to make note of reg number and report it. We may not have sufficient to charge with anything - but we do follow up here. A non menacing, friendly but firm chat over the dangers of waving arms around and not concentrating on the road ahead does actually work. (One fellow made such a gesture at one of our unmarked cars on the A1M once. Our guy was overtaking a fleet of trucks which he could see outstretched in L1 ahead. I somehow think he will not repeat this mistake It was his misfortune that I happened to be a passenger in this unmarked at the time ) Did he get a verbal NOIP with paper follow-up?

But at the same time - as said before - evaluate each drive and consider how it contributed to the anger. My driver did - but in this case - his was the correct plan as he was closing in on the L1 HGV "convoy" and wished to overtake them all. The muppet here caused us to change our plan

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

But by the same logic - it is not your place to sit in the middle lane for no good logical reason. If he had L3 to pull int0 then he should have used it. If you were passing or obviously planning to pass a huge convoy of crawlers in the encroaching limit points/horizons in L1 - then I would expect this guy as a normally competent driver to see this was why you are in L2.




But are you really safe sitting in L2 when not actually overtaking anything I' choose L1 - unless actually overtaking. Still - what do I know - I'm only a Hendon Trained Class One from tender age of 23 years at the time I passed that test .

And regarded that as just the beginning of my learning curve too



But you are trying to "teach the other driver a lesson" if you are in L2 for no real reason other than you can be at 70 mph and no faster. Not up to you to place yourself and your passengers in danger by not using correct lane disicpline. If you ae overtaking a convoy of lsower cars in the approaching distance - then this is a different matter and one would expect the other driver to see what you can see ahead up there in L1 - if driving at the tw0 second at least gap advice

Might I suggest Cooler and others , though, that you all purchase a copy of "Driving - Essential skills" and read page 220 ff carefully

It says that you should avoid repeatedly changing lane and that you can stay in the outer lanes if you are overtaking a number of slower moving vehicles - [b]but not to stay in the outer lanes LONGER than you need ot and IF you are HOLDING up other traffic regardless of their legality of speed


On page 222 - this book gives decent COAST style overtaking advice and on page 223 tells you to allow a deccent gap when moving back to L2/L1 after the overtakes - still COASTing and not cutting anyone up there

This book encourages COAST led driving and defensive driving. I would say a MUST to actually READ

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

In Gear,

Thanks for picking up the point about anger. Not all posters here have noted that anger behind the wheel is a very dangerous phenomena on the public roads.

A real risk is that when we are confronted with an angry driver, we become flustered, distracted or even angry ourselves.

C.

Just picked up your last post - duly noted.

So if you know the risks about being angry behind the wheel, why did you behave in such a manner to piss the BMW driver off to start with?

And please don't say because it was because he legally wasn't allowed to travel at more than 70mph.....In Gear (a serving police officer in case you hadn't noticed) has already pointed out that you shouldn't be holding others up regardless of the legality of their speed.

_________________
What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Gixxer,

Glad you posted, I didn't mean to annoy you in previous posts.

OK, I do have a slight problem with stubbornness, and I have to be careful about this when I'm driving. If a car comes up behind me and gives a single flash, then I am inclined to pull over. But if a car gets close up, with a lot of flashing and the dreaded fingers, then I am less inclined to pull over. It is the same with horns. If a person gives a short beep on a horn then I am usually quick to give way, but if a person leans on the horn I take a breath and think more carefully about the options and what is going on.

This is a human weakness on my part and probably rooted in competitiveness. I am not alone in having this problem, I have seen many instances with other drivers, and at least I am aware of it in myself.

There was one case where I was on a dual carriageway and a lorry was in the fast lane. I was behind him waiting for him to pull left again, so I could press on, and it was taking a very long time. Behind me was a BMW mini. The guy in the mini started flashing and waving for me to get out of his way, and I did.

I dropped back and he was then behind the lorry. The lorry continued to stay in the fast lane and he was stuck behind it. I remained in a hold back position in L1, just watching. Eventually the lorry pulled back into L1 and the mini sped off. Some miles down the road I pulled into a service station and the mini was there. I remember thinking that he hadn't gained much from elbowing me out of the way.

He had irritated me, but I realised it and I hadn't let it affect my driving.

C.

PS - A funny thing. I noticed that this kind of stuff never happened to me in the TVR, but almost always in our old family Peugeot. I was never flashed once in the TVR, but lots of drivers used to pull over for me.

Can I make a request here? That you guys make 50-60mph 57-60mph?
It's a pain in the arris to trucks when you guys are going slower than us as it forces us out into long overtakes in the same way that it's a pain in the arris to trucks when a blinkered fool in a car is mincing about in L1 at between 53 and 57 but we've also got to contend with the "jellylike state of mind" of the majority of other driver at the same time.. We'd far rather you overtook us than we had to overtake you-it's very hard to tell via mirrors when we're 2 seconds in front so it's safe to pull in and Trafpol don't flash us in...probably something to do with it not being in the highway code as best practice.

_________________
Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

Our un-marked stealthmobiles try to "blend in to conditions" at around the 60 - er 75 mph marks ( err 10% margin as they are "normal" lads and lasses.

Our marked and HATOs might be sweeping for reported debris - hence the slower pace



I would hope our guys and gals use common sense when you lot are on the roads. There are two things you should not do -

one being calling us rude names and socking us one in the jaw when trying to arrest you - politely.



Off topic aside

(I have been spat on .. gobbed on.. head butted .. socked one .. kicked in a place where it's a wonder my wife became pregnant - been knifed once and shot at a couple of times and had things thrown at me over the span of my career - yet always managed to treat the person who did this with polite calm whilst pinning him down - eventually One thing I learned early on in my career was that respect begets respect and to be bullish and bullying towards the person who we believed committed whatever could undermine any eventual successful prosecution. Apart from that - I happen to think I should treat all as I expect to be treated myself.]

the second being not to argue with anything like a big truck out there. Give space.. do not undertake them.. be aware they are in the right hand lane whilst making a left hand turn for a reason.. the sheer length of the vehicle. If on bicycle/motorbike - do not ride up their inside. They really have problems seeing you from their driving position.


Similarly, the truck.larger vehicle driver has to be aware of the "jelly-minded" out there and be as vigilant as or she can be for their safety.

All should be aware that these heavy horses are pulling heavy loads and may not be able to accelerate away like the rest of us. However, I would say after my drive down to Cambridgeshire - and I have had numerous suggestions from the "extended riff raff rebels here" as to what to post up - I would say that unwise for the large vehicle user to try to overtake on a climb. Makes more sense to do so on the slight downhill gradients if they still need to pass to struggling HGV in front of them.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Folks,

I spent a short time on a flyover on the M5 this morning, with a flask, sandwiches and my binoculars. I could see about half a mile in a Southerly direction. I counted 1000 cars which passed under the flyover in L2 and watched them into the distance.

From these cars, I counted 349 which moved into L1 in the length of motorway that I could observe and the remainder of the cars, 651, either remained in L2 or moved into L3. The motorway was not very busy (Sunday morning) and there were plenty of opportunities for vehicles to pull into L1, as L1 was only lightly interspersed with lorries and other slower moving traffic.

From this it is pretty clear that about two thirds of the drivers chose to remain in L2 or L3 on this stretch of motorway. I don't know if this sample of drivers is typical of motorway drivers around the country but that is what I observed this morning.

C.

In Gear,

I have both a motorbike and a car, and riding a bike on today's motorways is a scary experience.

'Think Bike' may be a good topic for a later discussion?

C.

And that is exactly the crux of the problem.

Poor lane discipline is probably the worst feature of motorway driving in Britain, and it can occaisionally play its part in an accident by causing frustration and unecessary lane changing and by shifting too much traffic into the right-hand lane.

Those are not my words but are a direct quote from "How to be an Advanced Driver", the official manual of the IAM which I received when I took my IAM test a couple of years ago; an organisation whose test you also say you have taken! It is particualrly noticeable when returning to the UK from a trip to mainland Europe just how poor UK drivers are at behaving themselves according to the HC on a motorway. The HC doesn't just exist for a laugh and ignoring the basic rules of conduct it lays down does not, as some (perhaps not yourself) appear to think, demonstrate a higher level of independent thinking but merely a higher degree of selfishness. Because lets face it, ignoring the HC is usually only done for the immediate gain of the 'ignorer' and for no other reason no matter how cleverly contrived the specious argument may be.

Why motorway behavious is so bad in the UK is open to question, it could be as simple a matter as the fact that nobody is taught to drive on motorways from the start. Most drivers have simply learned how to do it by aping the behaviour of other drivers the majority of whom are hardly suitable role models!
There is probably a bit of Britishness in there as well, particularly the desire to enforce upon others the standards of behaviour we expect them to follow. Its a tragedy, but in this individualistic 'me first' society we seem to be losing the ability to get along with one another and where once politeness and 'after you' were hallmarks of British behaviour we live in a time where 'out of my bloody way' and 'who the fcuk do you think you are' are the predominant attitudes.
And I would have to say that the 'faster' drivers probably bring a little bit of it on themselves; if drivers didn't get the idea that they would not be allowed back into one of the faster lanes if they concede that precious spot for a spell in L1 the they may be more willing to move over.

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

There is an element of truth in this, but two wrongs don't make a right. If a lane hogging driver impedes another, faster, vehicle then I understand that the 'baulker' can be done for causing an obstruction. You may think this is perverse but it demonstrates the degree of importance placed on merely breaking the speed limit and driving in a way as to impose your behaviour on other road users.

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Bang on, apart from the overtaking on downhills. If we do that we get flagged for it by tacho analysis-and the digi tachos give us an overspeed infringement.


The Welsh unmarked cars near Newport seem to think 53-57 and pissing off the trucks by pulling in too close is par for the course...

I wasn't calling you names please don't nick me

_________________
Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

Rigpig,

A couple of points.

1. I have quite recently driven in France, Spain and Belgium, and the first thing I noticed is that the roads are very much better there and not so crowded. Coming back into the UK after a driving holiday on the continent is quite a shock. However, I didn't notice that drivers over there were pulling into the slow lane any more than they are here. That's only my view though.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that the concern about being let back into L2 is probably behind the tendency to L2 hogging. I certainly feel it, and have been boxed in behind a slow L1 vehicle many times.

2. The IAM. I took this test in 1969, so I don't really think it would have covered motorway driving in anything like the depth it is covered today. Good grief, it was only ten years after the first motorway (M1) was opened! So I would appreciate a little slack on that point.

C.

Ride motorbike and push bike -= have few COAST probs personally - but will work to improve here.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I remember my first road trip to Germany c1999. I was visiting friends in Frankfurt, and then continuing on to see a friend in Munich before spending some private time along the "Romantichestrasse". My Munich friend had warned me to use the mirror on the autobahn from Frankfurt to Munich - very high speed sometimes. No kidding! I had my Golf VR6 to 140mph, and still cars were passing me at 150+. But...

... lane discipline was excellent. People always moved back to the right after overtaking, and never simply sat in the middle lane when the nearside (right) lane was free. There were even hoardings along the roadside in Germany (and Austria) showing a procession of angry looking snails in the left lane with the caption "Wo fahren sie den?", which I understand means where are you driving now? It was a publicity drive to encourage people not to waste the highway, but to move over if not overtaking. Over here, the mantra is "speed kills, kill your speed" - but I won't digress.

After getting back to the UK, it took a while to get used to the slower pace, and the congestion... but wait - there really was no congestion. I noticed I was being held up on a 4-lane motorway by some van driver who was happy to sit in L3 while L1/L2 were relatively free from traffic. I tried the continental trick of turning on my indicator to show I wanted to get by, but the driver clearly wasn't using his mirrors.

In my view, congestion is nowhere near as bad as it seems. It's just the slipshod lane usage that creates the impression of congestion.


Just a small point, but I think you'll find that the first motorway was the M6/Preston bypass. Here's a link - http://www.madeinpreston.co.uk/Road/M6.html

As said Cooler - EU has some differing rules which do reflect on their safety policies - and perhaps why they are now displacing the UK from its poll position in each aspect

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Rather conveniently experienced Coolers attitude tonight from my other half. Driving along the A3 she was getting ratty at drivers for sitting in the middle lane, L3 was chocked but L1 relatively empty. However, after passing them she didnt move over, so I er, told her to (oops), at which point she got annoyed at me being a bad passenger etc - along with excusing herself by saying she'd only have to come out again in a minute and didnt want to get boxed in.
I pointed out the only reason she might not get back out is because 90% of the people in L2 could have been in L1 and were taking the same view as her "Don't want to go in, be out again in a minute or so". She didn't get why I thought this was hypocritical or wrong, or why it annoyed me so much (but then she hasn't seen the thread!) and continued to get ratty at others for going slower than her in L2, whilst continuing to go slower than others herself (others subsequently pulling into L3 when gaps available).

The odd thing is she's not a bad driver, and I imagine most of the other L2's aren't bad drivers in other aspect - so why the reluctance to use lanes properly? It is a tricky one to figure out.

I was taught by my dad and subsequently have good lane management due to him taking me on motorways whilst I was learning. She was taught by an instructor who never took her onto an NSL dual carriageway/motorway, so she was never taught 'properly' and therefore never learned the correct use of lanes.

I'd say the general attitude towards lane management by drivers in this country (such as Cooler, my GF and probably a good 75% of drivers) is almost entirely due to lack of teaching on how to use lanes properly in the first place and further proof better, more extensive training is needed before learners can pass tests