Safe Speed Forums

I had a rather nasty accident back in October presumably involving leaves, so I've had to re-examine some of my thoughts about safe cornering and would welcome any thoughts on the matter.

Basically it was a nice right hander, on my favourite local bit of road, which I have ridden at knee-down speeds dozens of times without any kind of incident whatsoever (but that was in the summer). I guess the few months' layoff must have been due to all my commuting making taking the bike out for the same old local play a bit tedious...

Anyway, this time I knocked the bike over into the corner at 60 (as always, something I worked up to over many repeat runs) and take the right line, only this time first the rear steps out and then the front end goes. Result: me into tree, badly shattered tibia, dislocated hip/ankle and some nerve damage.

The road was dry, but there were leaves - I'm not sure why I didn't take this into account. I've since learned that apparently the underside of the leaves can still be wet?

It was kind of a shock to me really because I had considered myself to be a fast but safe rider rather than a nutter, which was generally the accepted assessment amongst friends too, and I've never so much as had any "ohshit" moments in the twisties before then. Complacency?

I had been led to believe that so long as the road surface is decent and dry, the tyres will handle peg-down lean angles without any problems at all (this is a Fazer we're talking about, not a CBRGSZX10000 with knee height pegs...), and that had certainly been consistent with my experience up until that point. Now I'm pretty sure wet leaves must have been the culprit of this accident, but it begs the question, how can you possibly tell the safe lean angle just by looking? How can you trust the tyres to work as they should, when the consequences of getting it wrong are so catastrophic?

I used to be a very confident rider, but now hopefully being able to ride again within a couple of months, I'm left wondering if it's at all possible to have fun in the corners without putting yourself in mortal danger at the same time.
And now I'm worried about diesel and suchlike - I've never been unfortunate enough to hit diesel in a corner, but how the hell do you prepare for something like that? With a leg that's going to take two years to heal properly, I can't afford to come off again.

How do you eliminate this risk without riding as if you have stabilisers on? Is being able to judge the exact levels of grip available something that just comes with experience, much like the "sixth sense" that develops from riding in traffic?

Sounds like you had a lucky accident there. Lucky cos no one else was involved, damage was only to you and your property and (most importantly) it seems to have had the effect of making you think about your riding style.

In the 20 years that I've held a bike license, I have never had my knee down or felt the urge to do so, but have had no end of fun. I do not really think that I have missed out in any way by not having to invest in a set of knee sliders.

Might I respectfully suggest track days for future knee down kicks?

Could have been leaves. Or the last traces of horse/cattle poo. Or oil. Or diesel. Or just bad luck old boy!

Hmm I'm not usually a knee-down merchant (except on deserted roundabouts at night, anyway), but you know how it is, attack of the temporary stupid and all that.
The thing is whether I should be worried about the possibility of the front washing out under normal riding. Logic says no, but my fear says yes.
As I've been told countless times, "the tyres will hold, they're much more capable than you are - just lean it further over, it will be fine".
Usually I'm brisk but cautious, I don't ever get anywhere near maximum lean angle in a fast corner (talk about over-committing yourself), but in a slower bend like a hairpin for example it's not uncommon to find the pegs touching down. Is this in itself dangerous? How much less grip do the tyres have at full lean than at half lean for example? Do the height of Fazer footpegs ensure that actually I'm getting nowhere near full lean on the tyres and it's fine?
I just don't want to get any more nasty surprises.

Realistically if you can't see the road surface is clear then you should be proceeding accordingly. Note that I don't mean ride like your granny,just that I mean you need to be able to take avoiding action when you see something.

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Hi RepiV. Hope you don't think I was being too harsh there.
Obviously, you've had a nasty shock and took a major blow to the confidence along with your other injuries.
I am concerned though about all those people who told you on many occasions to crank it over a bit more and it will be OK. Exactly who are these people?
The further you have to lean a bike, the closer you are getting to the tyres limits of adhesion due to the additional sideways forces. It's not a case of the rubber on the outside being less grippy than that on the inside. Dual compound tyres do exist (Bridgestone Battlaxe as standard fitment on my FJ1200) but the less grippy rubber is always in the middle of the tyre to give higher mileage without the tyres going "square".
Perhaps a little advanced rider training might help you get your confidence back. The Police used to run one called "The Edge" aimed at riders who had not ridden for some time and just bought a Fireblade .
You could do a lot worse than buying a copy of Police Motorcycle Roadcraft from your local HMSO book store, or WH Smiths can order you a copy. A tenner very well spent.

Yup. And if you can see all the way around the corner, the surface and weather is good, is that a license to lean it over as far as you want?



Not at all.



Basically everyone - experienced riders, my DAS instructor, etc...
I guess the context of the advice would be that you should use extra lean angle to get through a corner if necessary, not the brakes. But the upshot of it has always been that modern tyres and bikes are far more capable than virtually all riders, and as such it's not grip from lean angle that will be your limiting factor in a corner, but vision and incorrect technique.
Naturally I'm rather suspicious of that line of thinking now. It only takes one mistake...



Mm, I had BT020s. I don't rate them though, they were prone to sudden inexplicable rear wheel slides at modest lean angles in low speed cornering, especially in the wet. I'm getting Michelin Pilot Sports fitted this time, I hear they offer great grip in both wet and dry.



I joined the IAM back in August, but I never actually got the chance to ride with them. I'll definitely be getting involved at the earliest opportunity.
I've also got Twist of the Wrist 2, which is certainly helpful but perhaps the kind of advice which can just make things worse if you don't keep yourself in check.
Does the Police Roadcraft book discuss cornering grip? That's really what I'm most concerned about in my riding, and yet it's the topic which seems to be covered most rarely.
I find that riding in traffic has been more of an experience and practice thing, I commuted across London for a few months which was initially hellishly dangerous but over time became a lot safer, then I worked more locally for a while and when I went back to commuting through London, I felt like I was out of my depth again.
I am worried that I might be too out of my depth again when I get back on the bike initially, with the state of my leg I can't afford so much as to drop the bike on the driveway as it could fracture all over again. I hope slow speed balance and the like doesn't disappear over time off.

The problem here is that the question you are asking doesn't have the "yes or no" answer you are seeking.

On a warm day, with a dry and clean road, with warm tyres then I would agree that most decent tyres will continue to hang on long after your super-dooper sports bike is grounding it's exhaust / pegs etc, even with the enthusiastic rider hanging off the side like Randy Mamola (showing my age now ).

But then you have to take into account the several hundred things that can upset this happy state of affairs. First up, even if all is perfect grip-wise, you have to consider that to safely maintain this attitude you need to have full line of sight to the end of the corner - once you hit that limit you are totally and utterly commited to that line and have no options left should you need to tighten it. If you are on the limit and find that anything unexpectedly blocks your path then you have two options: hit it or fall off. (Sorry, you have a third option too - which is fall off AND hit it...)

Then there are all the rider induced issues that might upset the equilibrium. If you are less than perfectly smooth with throttle, brake, counter-steering, weight transfer then you can very easily unstick a tyre that is otherwise well within it's friction circle. Getting your knee down sounds great but do you know how smooth the road is? If you hit a bump and your foot slips off the rest then it won't just be your knee that is down!

And that's before we move onto road condition. Your mention of leaves (dry or wet) made me prick my ears up. Firstly, the fact that there are leaves on the road at all tells me it is autumn / winter, which in itself means 100% grip is not something you can rely on. Cold temperatures, greasy roads, residue road salt? All of these reduce traction below that theoretical "knee down" ideal. And even dry leaves probably reduce grip by 30-40% compared to clean tarmac. Not only that but if you choose to press on a bit remember that you are introducing an extra "layer" of slip into the equation - not only does your tyre have to grip the leaf, but you have to be sure the leaf will grip the road too.

And so it goes on. Spilt fuel? Cow sh*t? Loose chippings not yet swept from the road surface? Hedge clippings? Wild animals? It's a jungle out there; and that's before we even consider other road users!

Sorry if this all sounds a bit depressing. The short answer is that the "glorious abandon" of what we used to call "scratching" is a high risk pursuit. If you choose to "assume" that you can rely on perfect grip conditions all year round on our unpredictable roads then the painful incident you recount will likely be a regular happening. Even practising in tight radius corners isn't without it's risks - remember that lower speeds mean lower gears, which means more engine torque at the rear wheel and a vastly increased likelyhood it'll spit you off if you are a bit clumsy with the throttle.

You say you are now overly cautious, and deeply mistrustful of the level of cornering grip available. Well I'd say that's actually about the right attitude to have, particularly in winter and/or on unfamiliar roads. Gain confidence to press on a bit more when your own experience and judgement tells you, not when your mates do!

I don't know how long you've been riding, but I'm guessing it's not perhaps all that long. In time the feeling of being "cheated" of this idealised riding approach will pass, and you'll learn to revel instead in gaining expertise in judging conditions, surfaces, anticipating other traffic etc etc.

When I was 17 I had a lovely 250cc Suzuki, and a blind faith that road surfaces were entirely predictable. But coming home one sub-zero night I discovered that the air gap under bridges makes them freeze when everywhere else is fine. I discovered this by the means of sliding across one on my ar5e, whilst watching the aforementioned lovely 250cc Suzuki slide into the parapet in a pretty but expensive shower of sparks. 6 months later I learned that when taxi drivers pull into the left they aren't always stopping, but are sometimes just making space for a U turn, which they don't bother indicating for because they haven't seen the bike behind them. I discovered this one by piloting my P&J into his o/s/f wheel with sufficient velocity to destroy the bike, break his wrist and my ankle. Both hard lessons, but I haven't made either mistake since!*

If you are lucky you get a chance to live and learn. If you learn you might continue to live...

[* of course both these accidents would clearly have been prevented had we only had a plethora of speed cameras all those years ago. If only there'd been one at that bridge to stop me taking a corner at 20mph in a 30 limit; and of course one to stop the taxi driver making his U turn. I was clearly lucky to survive my experiences in those unenlightened times!]

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Total minefield, really...
It's funny, a good friend of mine has been riding for six years (rides every day of the year to boot), and he's never had an accident.
Now he can be the subject of light-hearted amusement amongst us, for he barely leans his R6 over at all in the corners, mahoosive chicken strips. After a few months' experience I was faster than him...tried to get him to trust the tyres on roundabouts etc. but he can't/won't.
Now I'm much more able to appreciate where he's coming from, though. Most of the other guys I ride with have had multiple serious accidents, which is an absurd way to live. I thought my cautious approach kept me safe but obviously that's completely overshadowed by my catastrophic lack of judgement.



Yep, it was late October. Stupid I know, I have no idea why that didn't occur to me at the time. Temperature was somewhere between 55 and 65F iirc, sunny, blue sky and so on. 3pm or so.



Yeah, I always knew winter riding would be a completely different ballgame, but I didn't expect the need for attitude adjustment to come so damn early. Oh well, lesson learned.
I don't tend to get out of second gear in the corners, tbh. Unless I'm crunching miles I like to use the whole of the rev range, I find the Fazer rapidly runs out of acceleration with each gear you add. In a 45mph corner I'll probably still use first gear. I wouldn't even think of going into a corner at three figure speeds...that requires a suicidal level of blind faith imo.



You guess right... I passed my test in May last year. I started off extremely cautious and sensible and over time I guess I got overconfident. And the race leathers I bought later on really brought out the devil in me, my everyday kit is nice sensible textiles. Maybe dressing like a power ranger makes you ride like one? I had in fact bought my first dark visor an hour before I crashed.
I'm tempted to replace them (they got cut off me) with a set of ordinary leathers without knee sliders, to discourage insanity. But that would suck for trackdays.

In a way it does feel like being "cheated" of the fun in the twisties, but I'm sure I'll manage. What really bothers me is that I took a conscientious approach to riding, spent hours studying safe riding, rode every single day in all weathers, bought books, joined the IAM, turned up to my CBT in full gear, bought a sensible bike and still managed to almost kill myself in my first six months. Biking must claim so many, many lives of inexperienced riders - and I'm not entirely sure there is any effective way to change people's attitudes to fast riding that doesn't come from having a horrific accident.



Yuss...painful...no better way to learn though.
Are you saying that in winter, the whole of eg. Hatfield Tunnel is an icy deathtrap?

Nooooo! you misunderstand...

Not a bridge you go under, but a bridge you go over, eg a bridge over a railway line. With air circulating under it dropping temperatures cause it to freeze long before the roads all around it.

This is one of the many, many phenomena that you don't consider until your awareness is heightened (eg by an experience like mine!), after which you find you notice it frequently. Then in time it becomes an automatic response to allow for it, eg by ensuring you unload any cornering force just before you cross the bridge in potentially icy conditions.

You'd find it an education to sit in with a decent rally driver, it would teach you an amazing amount about "reading" surface conditions. For example a guy I used to sit with once commented that a patch of ice in a corner wasn't a problem, it was ice in the braking area before it that frightened him. If you think very carefully about that statement it will tell you just how carefully, accurately, and early he was assessing cornering grip...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

No, not at all. If you take it to the limit, there's nothing to use when an emergency happens so the only choice you have is to be on your arse. You can't expect the road to be clear like a racetrack. It rarely is even when there's no other vehicles around. Also, if you do have to sit the bike up a bit to avoid the unexpected (it's as likely to happen as you having to lean further) then you won't be going so fast you can't stay on the road. Like I said, you don't have to ride like your granny-just realise that your own capabilities while riding also include being able to react in time to hazards.


As JT says, bridges, shadows and all sorts of stuff you wouldn't expect to cause a hazard can jump out and bite you.In the autumn you've got pigeons drunk on rotting fruit as well (and hitting a pigeon hurts-BTDT!) Roundabouts/bends near truckstops/big garages/transport yards will be greasier than the rest. The borders between counties aren't usually gritted properly in the winter.

BTW, if you're not sure of the surface use a higher gear not a lower one. Using 1st and 2nd is very much more likely to cause loss of traction. My old 850 shafty locks the back wheel in a straight line at 40mph without brakes at 8k revs if I close the throttle sharply. Chain drive is far easier but it'll still break away.

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

Re: JT's posts.

I wish I'd wrote them

Hope you make a full and good recovery very soon.

Oh, right. I take it flyovers are affected in the exact same way?



Yup...on reflection I think my ultimate undoing was that my riding skills developed faster than my experience could handle.
From what I can gather though, complacency and overconfidence is a life-long problem that goes in cycles. I can't say I have any personal experience of that cycle, as I did not drive before getting into biking (and have no intention of ever doing so) - but it seems to be something people struggle with over the course of their driving/riding careers.
I wouldn't be surprised if people with advanced riding qualifications had a higher incidence of serious and fatal accidents on rural roads as compared to the norm.



How do you go about "sitting in" with a rally driver? It sounds interesting.



Aye...
I think I need to get me a trackbike, and learn to enjoy the more subtle aspects of riding on the road.
I never really saw it as a problem and I'm still not sure I do, but after I'd been riding a while the only time you could ever describe my riding as laid back was when I had a passenger, or in the wet.
I rarely did anything that put me in an obviously dangerous situation, but full throttle away from the lights, fast filtering and occassionally hitting 120mph on empty stretches of the A41 into London, nailing it down the wrong side of Finchley Road while their lights are red to clear the traffic jam going into central in one go...all daily occurences on my commute.
I needed to feel like I was in my "zone", slow it down and it's boring and feels like I'm dawdling for no good reason, speed it up and, well, I don't like heart-in-mouth moments.
But in any case I don't think it's a particularly healthy way to be riding on a daily basis. If nothing else, it gets boring after a while and then you go looking for the next thrill. And I guess while it may be safe enough occassionally, if you do it all the time eventually the law of averages is gonna screw you?
It's actually quite hard to find the answer as to what's safe and what's stupid, given that the two major points of reference are a road traffic policy designed for four-wheeled vehicles which completely ignores both the performance envelopes of bikes and the skill and awareness of their riders, and a riding community with an overactive throttle hand which is willing to accept risking death as a part of the lifestyle.



I do feel like I've missed out on the winter riding experience, I'm sure it would have been extremely valuable to me. Although I remember thinking back in the middle of winter that it would have been hell out on the bike in that cold. I went out with my friend on the bikes on an October's night, close to freezing temperatures I think and it was bloody cold.
I ended up stuck behind a coach on Finchley Road once that was literally pissing diesel all over the road. Like someone had stuck a knife in the tank and twisted. Come to think of it I don't know why I never got any twitchy tyres...needless to say it took about half an hour before I could put my feet down at the lights without them sliding around.
Diesel spill negligence really boils my blood, do people just not realise how much danger they're causing to others?



Thanks. I did have that happen once actually, riding a friend's Bandit 650 - shut the throttle and the rear didn't like it. Then again, I've never ridden a bike with a dodgier rear end...in the wet it never failed to dance all over the place with even the slightest application of rear brake.



Thanks.
From what the doctors are saying, it's unlikely the recovery will ever be full, and it'll probably be a couple of years before I can run or play sports again.
But I'm not that bothered tbh, at the moment I just want my bike and my life back. It could have been a whole lot worse (indeed, I could have gone another year accident-free all the while building up my confidence, had a similar crash at twice the speed and died). In the long run it's probably a good thing for my health!

Just wish I had taken out comprehensive insurance and loss of income cover first...

No i think you have got it all wrong. Like a lot of new bikers do.

They assume the ability to go fast, the ability to get your knee down on a corner means you are a good driver and experienced. In part i think its a macho thing.

I could get a Honda C90 leaned over as far as it could go in a matter of days when i was 17 and had L Plates, i could wheelie the thing and do all manor of insane things. I had absolutly zero fear but being realistic zero experience and therefore no real riding skills.

Riding skills arent just about being able to physically get the knee down on a corner its the whole package of reading the road, having a good idea of what the bike will do in all different types of conditions. Even tha ability of being able to correct a mistake without going down the road on your arse.

An advanced motorcyclist, a traffic police motorcyclist you prob wouldnt be able to catch them on twisty roads in all conditions and they will be much safer drivers than you. They read the road as described in other posts above, thats what experience should teach you.

Its not a case of you have to go slow in the winter or drive like a granny, its a case of you have to understand the conditions and learn to spot them to keep yourself outta trouble.

Having an accident can be the best thing for some bikers, it gives them respect for the road conditions and what the bike can do, it also gives them a wake up call that motorbikes can be dangerous.

I think your problem is you thought you had it sussed and this has completly thrown you, believe me it prob aint a bad thing, ive been in similar situation about 10 years ago where i was forced to examine the way i rode.

repiV,

when you are mended and have saved up for your insurance (that is gonna hurt), have you considered the fun to be had at low speed?

I did my direct access in 2000 and had ideas about a Fazer/CBR600/SV650 etc, but finacial constraints and being generally tight stopped me. In 2002 I bought a C90 for £300, I use it every day and have had many laughs on it. I have fallen off it once, but that was due to taking it off road to check my irrigator. It doesn't like being an R1200GS...

We have to use our bikes in the environment for which they were designed and heavey traffic in town is where mine comes into it's own. I have (just) kept up with a GSXR750 in town, he couldn't beat the lights even with a big power advantage. Resent urban vitctims have been a V-Rod and a 1250 Bandit, they were too wide .

Cruising around minor roads in the summer is great fun at 40mph. You can almost hear the birds singing and smell the flowers, there's no need to rush. But if you really must have an adrenalin rush, there is no greater than taking a C90 on NSL dual carriageway never again!

They are a very good way of building up noclaims too. Mine has cheaply got me 5 yrs protected NCB and I have checked and can get a 900 Hornet insured fully comp for less than £120.

I can't read the road conditions like a copper, but having cartoon suspension, no grip and a only nod in the direction of brakes makes me very aware of what is going on under my skinny tyres.

RepiV

Sorry to hear about your accident, and hope that you will soon be back on two wheels.

The fact that you have posted this message is a good thing, it means that you are thinking about the reasons for the accident and looking for answers. As JT has pointed out, we should all learn from the mistakes we make, it is what allows us to get older and wiser!

Reading your post, I was struck by the phase that you had made a few runs and built up to the speed, before the final time, when it lost the rear and then the front.

Regardless of the road conditions, leaves, etc, just think about the forces that you are exerting on your bike/tyres. You have gone from a stable upright position to one of severe lean angle, with minimal time for the bike to adjust, therefore upsetting the balance completely, causing the bike to effectively skid, as the tyres lost traction.

For a full discription of skidding, Roadcraft has a full definiton and pictures to explain it. It also explains that to get out of a skid you should steer into it. and this is what racers do when sliding the rear tyre. So you might want to think about your cornering style, counter steering, etc.

However, if I might make an observation, the obsession with getting your knee down is fueled by the biking press and does not make you ride any quicker (unless on a race track where you can apex each corner) and as noted by someone else, a good Police / Advanced rider would beat you along your favourite road.

The reason for this is simple, while you both would be riding at the same speed along the straight, he would be braking earlier, setting the bike up for the corner and accelerating earlier to drive through it, while you would have gained a few feet in the braking area, but are now hanging off the bike and unable to open the throttle as you hang on to the bike in the bend!!

For anyone who doubts this theory, try this with a friend on a dual carriageway with no traffic about - one of you approach the empty roundabout and ride around it, following the curve of the island and exit on the third turning to make it a right turn. The other rider enters the roundabout and steers a wide line into the roundabout, to make it an oval (so you start at the righthand side of lane 2, crossing early and smoothly to the nearside lane, then a slightly sharper turn, so you are accelerating as you apex the island and forming a straight line to the nearside of the third exit). I think you will be surprised at the results - if I have explained it clearly - and please don't collect your mate as hou whizz past his nearside!

Hope some of this helps.

William

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Less haste - more speed (in the right places!)

I would echo all of the above.

My first bikes were both under 250cc. One let go of its rear sprocket while in the outside lane of the A2. On the other I came round a nice right hand corner at approx 40 mph to find a brick lying on my line. I was lucky, the suspension handled it and I was only a couple of inches off line when I landed.

Riding a big bike takes years of skill, although you don't say whether it was the 6 or thou. Some Fazers have a low exhaust and others have the under the seat exhausts. If you have an exhaust which is low it can come into contact with the road prior to the edge of the rear being reached. This will cause the rear to lose grip closely followed by the front which is now overloaded with forces.

Your friend who rides every day all year undoubtedly knows more about his bike and how it handles than any other rider who goes out after passing his test and gets their knee down in a week.

I've been riding bikes for about 15 years and have owned my R1 for 10 of those.

I have never gotten my knee down. I don't have to because then I have a margin for adjustments.

BTW, I have braked on diesel and it is as bad as ice. I've also had the front and the back of the bike step out because of black ice. Try to never have to stamp your foot down to lift the bike out of a slide. It hurts.

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Prepare to be Judged

Sorry for the long post...



To be fair my self-evaluation was never based upon "being fast", rather on factors like following proper cornering technique (look through, accelerating around the bend to weight the rear, don't touch the brakes etc.) and never target fixating/panic braking, commuting across London for a number of months in good time with no major incidents, not relying on using the brakes to alter speed and so on. I was never an insane speedfreak (part of what has made the whole experience so frustrating, but also revealing).
The knee down "heroics" came 10,000 miles later with the overconfidence it brought, and an addiction to the feel and sound of titanium on tarmac that I discovered with my new Alpinestars suit. Think I'll stick to empty roundabouts in future.
What I meant was that - and I may be wrong, but I still believe it to be true - I picked up an unusually varied skillset and developed it to an unusually high level for only having five months' worth of riding experience (people have commented on more than one occassion that they assumed I'd been riding for years), but I didn't gain the experience/discretion to be able to judge accurately enough when not to use certain skills. Cue making the idiotic mistake of treating an October road like it was June.



I have to agree (although if this was about teaching me a lesson, I wish I'd broken something that didn't take so bloody long to heal...).
What this has taught me is to look at safety margins in a whole new light - you'll get away with it nine times out of ten, or maybe even 99 times out of 100, but when riding is a lifestyle and not an occassional interest, those odds are actually terrible. And it only has to go wrong once to be catastrophic. That was my one and only crash, and I got injured far more severely than any of my friends have in their time, most of them much more reckless and having had multiple serious accidents over the years. Unforgiving game...



I wouldn't go for a slower bike, although my absolute favourite roads are those tight, twisty B-roads in Essex with the 15mph hairpins around Saffron Walden/Finchingfield etc. Brilliant fun, although they can be extremely deceptive at times. I much prefer the slower corners - you try to get those kind of lean angles on a "120mph sweeper" and you're playing in Darwin's league.
I do a lot of long distance riding - stay with a friend of mine in Exeter quite often in particular - so something with a bit of oomph and a half-fairing is pretty much essential. I wanted to replace the bike with a Fazer Thou instead for this very reason, but the insurance really is insane. The 600 would probably be more useful and fun for town and twisties anyway.
Never understood the sportsbike craze though. I've ridden several and didn't get on with any of them - the R6 is pretty entertaining and has razor-sharp steering, but after half an hour I want to get off. Too uncomfortable. Plus, downright awful in traffic - not to mention they're slow unless you rev the shit out of them. Don't see the point in the things. I reckon most people would get far more out of a performance-oriented streetbike.



Yeah, you've just brought back memories of this scooter bastard who was never out of my mirrors for long on the way home from work one night. Traffic wasn't even that heavy. I was impressed.
I like the Fazer because it does everything well. It could use slightly more kick and top end, and it's probably lacking in ground clearance for trackdays but other than that I can't really fault it.



Hmm.
I have to admit, the most fun I've had on a bike was the couple of weeks I spent on a 125 preparing for my DAS. But I don't think that has anything to do with the low power of the bike, it's just that it was a novel and amazing new experience. Especially having been reliant on public transport before, I got to see all these new and interesting places outside of London that were suddenly only half an hour away. It was utterly brilliant in every way.



Very cheap.
My TPFT insurance was £450, which I thought was pretty damn good, but they wanted £2600 for fully comp. I now understand why.
Although this year I've been quoted half that (not that it matters yet anyway).



Aye. I always thought the guys who ride scooters in winter are a bit crazy myself!



Thanks.



So progressively applying steering input is safer than knocking the bike right over into the desired lean angle straight away?



I'll definitely check out the book, thanks.
My cornering style generally goes something like this:

- I ease off to the desired corner speed well in advance, generally using engine braking - I'm not into heavy braking or (sounds like a moronic idea to me -) trail braking.
- I usually stay in the saddle, it's less effort and I get more lean angle therefore more fun. If I am in the mood for hanging off, I also get this done in advance and "lock" the position against the bike, still with arms loose. In any case, inside toe goes up onto the peg to avoid boot scraping.
- I take a wide entry point, look right through to the exit and generally say to myself when I'm going to turn in, then push on the bar until the desired lean angle is attained (quickly, but not aggressively) and as soon as the bike's over I start very gently rolling on the throttle (for grip, not speed).
- Then pick the bike up and on my way. I don't usually nail it out of a corner as I don't see the point, but if I do accelerate out of a bend, I wait until the bike's upright.



I don't doubt it.
I'm not that interested in outright speed really, I just love having the bike over sideways. It's a glorious feeling. As is that of slider against tarmac. Tend to enjoy left-handers more as they're generally a bit sharper.
Thus my dilemma!



Most definitely. Thank you.



Christ, I would have been surprised to hear of a bike being able to go over a brick in a straight line, let alone in a bend.
I had a similar experience with a pothole at night - a similar speed to your brick case I would guess, just the curvature of an urban road. First I knew of it was when the back end stepped out massively, I was amazed when I didn't come off. I guess there's only one way to handle corners at night...slowly.



It's the 6...'02 Foxeye model. Hate the new ones with the underseat exhausts, they're bloody awful. Snatchy fuelling, all the acceleration of an asthmatic weasel and it really feels like the computer is pondering over your throttle input and then badly translating it...like a Babelfish bike or something, whereas on the carbed bike it just does what you tell it to. Bleurgh.
I don't think I've ever experienced the exhaust scraping before - is there any reason it would have done so in that situation when it didn't at other times when the pegs were actually down?



No doubt. I think he chose the wrong bike though.
Never seen him lean it over 20 degrees...I'm working on converting him to the Fazer faithful. I wish there were more bikes like it, the other bikes in the class are either much slower, unfaired or both. I could definitely see myself on a Street Triple, if only it had a half-fairing.



It's not an experience I look forward to. I've had plenty of rear wheel slides (usually at sub-25mph speeds and moderate lean angles, oddly enough) but they've always corrected themselves.

Maybe you need to try something bigger and non race-rep orientated(ie more torque) like a ZRX,a 1200 Bandit or similar.I find the bigger stuff far easier (and lazier) to ride on the torque rather than the revs.

I can't deal with 600s anymore- I get fed up with constantly having to buzz the motor to get it to do anything then getting all the power in one burst.

It's worth going out and taking some test rides.

_________________
Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

THB I would seriously recommend either something small or something old.

The first bike I bought was a 1979 XS650 and it tought me alot. Quite heavy for it's size, tall, and not too great on the handling (although I'm told it was one of the better handling bikes around at the time). Couple that with the torque of a 650 parallel twin that will break traction in 2nd at tickover on a damp road, oh and mahoosive slide carbs where if you opened the throttle too fast it would stall the engine...

I rode that for about 2 years before the engine went pop (and it's now an 840, so more fun to come) and it really did teach me respect for throttle control and cornering. I can now jump on pretty well anything (most recently a bandit 12) and feel completely in control.

My every day bike is an E-reg GPZ5 and I really wouldn't change it for the world.

I get far more pleasure from riding well than riding fast. You still get a buzz, but it's more of a warm glow than anything else.

Oh, and a wise man once told me that if you FEEL out of control then you are.

Hope you heel fast and get back on your bike soon.

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Yeah...I would really like an FZS1000. They're really expensive though, and insurance group 15.



A big twin would be nice, but I can't think of any except for the TLR, which I tried once and couldn't stand, and the SV thou which I guess I should try and test ride at some point.

My mechanic reckons he can fix my Fazer and fit new tyres for under £1000 though, so I'll probably just go with that. I do love that bike.



I guess you need to be in the mood to ride them. I'm happy with the way the power is delivered on the Fazer, but it runs out of steam in third gear upwards. The sports 600s have the power but the way they deliver it is too extreme. I feel like I'm being obnoxious when I ride the powerband on my friend's R6, revving the thing to 18k just seems incredibly anti-social.
Having said that, I would love the new CBR600RR. It looks like one hell of a bike. The CBR, my Fazer and a ZZR1400 would make a dream garage. Some day...



Aye. Dealer bikes are stupidly expensive though, I would never buy from a dealer so I feel guilty when I test ride their bikes.
0% finance on shiny new bikes is always a tempting offer but probably results in buyer's remorse...



I really can't see myself getting anything smaller than a 600 tbh, or more than a few years old (well, I might be tempted to get something like a CB500 or ER-5 for London commuting, but not as a main bike). Especially considering my Fazer only cost me £1,250 with 13k miles on it and the only thing wrong with it some cosmetic damage on the fairing. But I'm in no hurry to repeat this experience, in any case...



Thanks. I hope so too, boredom is the least tolerable of all emotional states.