Safe Speed Forums

Gixxer,

You seem to be implying that by travelling at 70mph in L2 of a motorway I am doing something to someone else, stopping them in some way. Not so; they are free to overtake.

But there is another point at issue here. By flashing their lights and waving at me a driver behind is making a judgement about my available road positions and options, and this is not their call to make. It is up to me to decide whether it is appropriate to make a lane change, not another driver. This is similar to the old problem of people waving us on, and then we have an accident - but of course it's not their problem it's ours.

If I react to a gesticulating driver and then have an accident, it is not that driver's problem but mine. There is no way that I am going to endanger myself and my passengers because of some roadhog giving me a hard time. I'm sure that anyone would agree with this point.

This is all about taking responsibility for our own driving, not the driving of others.

C.

i dont think anyone here would condone flashing & bullying tactics, especially when another lane IS available to pass in without issue.

but really it has feck all to do with the legality of it.. its just plain courteous.
sure if you have a reason to be out in L2 stick with it and shrug your shoulders if someone has a problem with it.

if you're there just to obstruct them then you're just rude.

do you let people out of side roads when traffic is heavy ?
do you flash trucks out or in when they're clearly making progress on a slower vehicle ?
do you wave pedestrians across where safe & convenient to do so ?

none of these actions are scribed in law but they are all common courtesy.
without cooperation & courtesy between all road user groups our roads just wouldnt work.

ed,

Given the nature of traffic today it is not uncommom to find the slow lane (L1) interspersed with lorries. It is reasonable to anticipate that a lorry in the distance in L1 will soon become a problem if we are travelling at 70mph. So, I think there is a judgment to be made about whether I want the inconvenience of having to slow down quite soon, or carry on in L2 and let the flasher overtake me.

One way of getting out of the way of flashers is to speed up in L2 (which of course I would never do at 70mph). I do know someone who did this and he found that the flasher followed him up the speedo until they were both white knuckling on a fairly clear motorway. This of course is madness, because now he is speeding and has been pushed into it by a flasher.

My thought here is that the flasher was not so much concerned about overtaking as making some kind of ego point, possibly related to the fact that he was in a sports car and my friend was in a Citroen saloon. I have noticed myself that flashers are almost always in performance or executive cars of some kind, which does seem to fit the story.

C.

PS - I take your courtesy point. Yes, I do let cars out of side roads. No, I never give headlamp or hand signals intended to influence the behaviour of other road users or pedestrians.

If a driver speeds up to get out of the way of a flasher, then it’s no good blaming the flasher. If there is space to do it, why can he not just pull over to let the driver behind through?



Have you not considered that he may just be making a point that there is no need to sit in lane 2, if lane one is empty.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

I do this all the time, and I very rarely have to slow down behind lorries in lane 1, because lane 2 is too full for me to enter. This is because, as I have alluded to a couple of times already, I anticipate. That means looking far enough ahead and far enough behind to know when the optimal time to move left and move right will be, and managing your own speed to ease the transitions. If you are waiting until you are close behind a lorry before you look to move into lane 2, you have failed to anticipate, failed to be aware of the surrounding road.

Oh, and the judgement thing. It's fairly well accepted AIUI that the optimum time is 10 seconds - if you have not passed anything in 10 seconds, you should be in the lane to your left. 10 seconds at "normal" motorway speeds is about 2 tenths of a mile. Use your odometer when the roads are clear, practise it, make it become a skill to be able to tell differential speeds and how far you will travel in 10 seconds.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Well, I drive miles and mile on the motorways, up and down the place. I drive an R reg. rover saloon. I can't recall the last time I was flashed in anger on the motorway by ANY type of vehicle...

A point on 'if L3 is clear why doesn't he use it'? This is about relative perception isn't it? You deem that L1 is too busy for you to move over into comfortably, and judge that L3 is empty. The flasher may well deem that there is enough room in L1 for you to yeild, AND may have noticed something in L3 incomming at extreme speed. It works both ways.

The thing is, probably the single most risky thing on a motorway is the lane change. So, by sitting in L2 when L1 is clear, you are forcing faster moving traffic to make unneseccary lane changes and thus increasing the risk levels in the situation. If you're in L1 then the 'speeder' can make progress without the extra hinderance.

I would be very surprised if you're getting flashed regularly for being in L2 legitimately.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Whats all this bollocks about ecological and economical? Keep left unless overtaking. Stopping at red lights is also uneconomical, but no more optional than the above!

If a driver lacks the skills to judge a reasonable gap to pull in, and manoeuvre safely and effectively between lanes in various traffic conditions then serious doubts should be raised about their ability to drive on the motorway system.

Dixie,

One point I have made is about agency. The driver of each car is the agent of responsibility for that motor vehicle, not others. If a car flashes another car from behind, then this implies that the driver of the car behind wants some kind of action from the driver of the car in front. It is not up to the driver of the car behind to decide when it is appropriate for the driver of the car in front to make a lane changing manoevre. That driver can make these choices in their own car, but cannot make the call for others.

The driver of the car in front may decide to pull into L1 or accelerate into L3 (thus breaking the speed limit) or proceed at 70mph in L2, or accelerate in L2 (thus breaking the speed limit). But this decision is not up to the driver of the car behind.

As far as I can see, the flasher behind a car doing 70mph in L2 of a motorway, is making one point only, through the medium of headlights and hand signals and this point is "Get out of my way, cause I want to speed." This is not a legitimate call.

C.

Robin,

There are no red lights on a motorway, which makes motorway driving more economical than A road driving, provided that we maintain a steady speed (not too fast because of wind resistance) with a minimum of braking a light touch on the throttle. Braking always costs us in fuel unless we have one of these new hybrids.

C.

Sixy,

That's a good point. The flasher may well have seen a yet faster moving vehicle coming up in L3 and is unhappy about pulling out into the fast lane. He/she may judge it safer for me to pull into L1 than for he/she to overtake.

Given this situation I would recommend that the flasher contents them selves with a 70mph cruise behind me until L3 becomes available, unless I choose to slow down into L1, for my own reasons.

C.

The above attitude indicates to me that you shouldn't be on the road at all.
In fact, if motorway driving were part of the driving test then you wouldn't be getting a license with that attitude.

Seriously Cooler, one of these days you are going to meet someone that isn't content with just flashing their headlights and gesticulatng at you.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Gixxer,

You have missed my point; I am saying that it is my call when to change lanes, not the flashers.

Let's turn it around. Do you think that a driver approaching another vehicle which is travelling at 70mph in the middle lane of a motorway should always expect that vehicle to pull into the slow lane for them?

BTW it's bit unkind to suggest that I shouldn't be on the road at all. If you had been my examiner I would never have passed my IAM test!

C.

Cooler,

It's simply beyond my understanding why someone would choose to sit in L2 of a three lane motorway when L1 is clear. Even worse when someone doing this would impede the passage of others.

I've read a lot of twaddle from people who say they don't drive in L1 because of ruts, lorries, being boxed in and all manner of other feeble excuses. The fact is that a motorway has at least 2 lanes and it is intended for all of them to be utilised by a driver to ensure safe and expedient passage to ones destination.

If a driver cannot do this and observe very simple lane disciple for reasons ranging from confience to arogance, poor anticiption or some perverse vigilantism then they simply should not be allowed on the roads.

You have already admitted that you sit in L2 regardless of whether L1 is clear or not.


No self respecting IAM sits in L2 regardless of what is happening, and no self respecting IAM would even consider using the excuse of staying in L2 because they are likely to encounter a "slow moving vehicle" (as you have done).


Sorry Cooler, your excuses are very poor and hold no water whatsoever.
All I hope (more for your family's sake than your's) is that you don't meet the "nutter" who wants to turn you in to a vegetable for your pious attitude towards other road users.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Civil,

Yes, I agree that is natural to pull into L1 of a motorway when this lane is clear and can facilitate the cruising speed of your choice.

C.

Bit of a contradiction do you not think?

I also notice that you choose to only answer specific questions that the group ask.....now who else do we know who used to do that?

As for you being a member of the IAM, I only have one thing to say to you.... kush in toches arein!

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Not on the main carriageways, no (unless you're unlucky enough to encounter a gantry full of red X's...), but there are a growing number of traffic lights on stretches of roadway (slip roads, roundabouts) to which motorway regulations apply.

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Chris

I have wondered whether these flashers are unstable types, and your characterisation of 'nutter' may not be far from the truth. You are suggesting that there are motorists who not only wish to break the law by speeding, trying to force people out of their way, but would resort to common assault on another driver.

C.

I hope you only consider them feeble excuses when said by people who routinely avoid L1, and treat them with a bit more respect when said by people who generally exhibit good lane discipline and use them only to justify a short term period of L1 avoidance...

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Chris

First rule of driving.....expect the unexpected!


Skills that you obviously lack judging by your comments thus far.


What planet are you living on exactly?

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?