Safe Speed Forums

Folks,

I found these images of vandalised gatsos. There are a lot of them, and often the same gatso is repeatedly taken out of commission in this way. We have one near us which was rammed by a car and then set on fire. The contractors had a replacement put up within four weeks.

http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

What do we think about this kind of vigilante action, and what do the images of these cameras mean to you on an emotive level?

C.

common vandalism, the perpitrators should be locked away for causing a public danger.

Though of course the danger is caused by the potential for debris from the equipment, or the flames of the fire, not in the least by the absence of the working scamera.

I have no wish for Safespeed to be involved in condoning vandalism of any sort.

Cooler,



Are you a psychologist or similar?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Like malc says, the purpose of this site is to expose the flaws in current policy and press for changes in a legal manner, and not to support acts of vandilism.


On an entirely personal level, I'm pleased that hundreds of people are willing to put themselves at risk to demonstrate their fustration at an unfair, unjust and damaging practice bourne from lazy, inept and greedy civil servants, it restores a little of my faith in human spirit.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

And that brings me onto something else.

We've more or less decided that automated speed enforcement taxes only those who, to greater or lesser degrees, make an effort to be law abiding. They don't catch those who drive stolen or unregistered cars, joyriders, or many such lawless "high risk" drivers.

so does it follow that those who chose to vandilise gatso's are also generally law abiding, fallen foul of an unfair system designed to exhort money and seeking personal retribution on the unfeeling, automatron goliath? Its accepted on a psychological level that once you criminalise someone you may begin to alter how they think about themselves, is criminalising millions of people so wantonly actually prompting a small number to behave like criminals? Are they feeling that as one part of the law is unfair, why respect any of it?

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Malcolm,

I did postgrad research in moral philosophy, studying human rights. I guess the mindset has stayed with me ever since.

We might look back at the poll tax riots of the 1980s, mirroring similar riots in the 13c. In these cases violent behaviour on the streets resulted in the laws being repealed or changed. It is interesting to look at the way changes can occur in politics, and oppressive taxation is usually a catalyst for some kind of movement. The number of bricked up windows in Georgian houses is another example of the lengths some people will go to avoid an unpopular tax; they preferred to live in the dark rather than pay up! Probably the servants got those rooms.

For me, the images of the vandalised cameras emote the anger and frustration that some people must be feeling. It's not a good sign.

e.

Excellent point, hairyben. It is the registered owner of the vehicle that suffers most from this surveillance, and probably not even the determined speeder. My guess is that the bulk of the money comes from distracted totters, and those who have to commute for a living, being hurried in the morning going to work and tired out on the way home.

Determined speeders don't select commuter routes when they choose to break the law, but that is where almost all the cameras are.

That's only my own opinion of course.

C.

I condemn any deliberate destruction of public property. However I can understand the feelings that drive people to do that kind of thing.

I also condemn the waste of public money in replacing the devices.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Agreed, but it also important to remember that this type of "direct action", UNLESS carried out on a very large scale, is massively counter-productive to the efforts of groups like Safe Speed.

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

I appluad the vigilantes (to a degree), and the images simple elate me (again, to a degree).

Put a camera outside my son's school and impose a strict 20mph limit by all means, and I'll be 100% behind the concept.

However please do not insult my intelligence by putting a camera on the A31 and artificially lowering the limit by 20mph knowing full well you will catch the world and it's mother exceding the "new" 50mph limit and tell me it's all to do with "road safety".

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Prof,

Yes, there is a tipping point when direct action becomes effective, and it is about the level of public support. I remember people chaining themselves to railings in this regard, and a political result was achieved.

I have noticed some camera partnerships claiming that cameras have overwhelming public support, with greater demand than they can supply. Apparently this comes from people living in villages on busy roads wanting the traffic calmed. I can see their point, but have noticed that illuminated warning signs that come on when we approach a village are effective and of course they inflict no fines or points.

C.

Hmm, maybe we should chain ourselves to speed cameras. I suspect we would be left to rot by the roadside, or is this too cynical?

Can I just clarify if you think this should apply 24hrs per day? Does anyone know if there are any speed cameras which only work at certain times (apart from motorway VSL)?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

we had strict instruction's only to work school sites, when the school was in session, mainly start / end or dinnertime

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now retired

I don't know if 'Cooler' has studied the period of Prohibition in the United States.

Here literally half to three-quarters of the population were suddenly made criminals overnight, with the results we can all read about in the history books.
Now we have the smoking bans in the USA and Europe, not quite so draconian, but still pretty severe all the same. Where I live in Cheshire pubs are shutting in large numbers, and the same seems to be happening everywhere else, (I see them all boarded up as I drive around). Obviously more smokers than non-smokers went to pubs., so with them gone the pub goes bust.

A typical case of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Cash cameras are another example similar to Prohibition. When you target the whole driving population and fine EVERYBODY, it is no longer a crime, it's a tax.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

Safedriver,

Excellent prohibition example and correct on the taxation point IMHO.

C.

I have attended a fair number of court cases.
Even when they listened to the evidence and we won they failed to allow justice spread to others caught by their crooked scam. It is of no surprise that anger is taken out on such equipment. My only surprise is that no one has been hurt yet.

If an authority stops listening then they risk disorder. If there is no justice in the courts or genuine route to change things some people will brake the rules as much as the government. Some people stick within the law. Others don't.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

OK, I'll improve my question. Does anyone know if there are any FIXED speed cameras which only work at certain times?

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

anton,

On the subject of getting hurt. I think the same link showed photos of skidmarks on the roads just before partially hidden cameras. There must have been some nasty accidents caused in this way.

C.

Cooler - good thread! You may be interested to know that a poll was conducted on this board in 2004, asking people whether they would report such acts of vandalism to the police or turn a blind eye, were they to see such vandalism in progress. Of 78 votes cast, only 3 people said they would report it to the police immediately. (These were probably hjeg2, weepej, and "safetyman" ) The other 75 said they'd turn a blind eye. Here's a link to the poll thread - http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=973

I've seen those pictures before, and others like them. Whereas I would feel a sense of outrage if public property, such as buildings and monuments, was being damaged, I'm afraid that my moral fibre is exposed as tarnished or even threadbare, because with regard to vandalism of speed cameras, I couldn't give a stuff. I even had a quiet snicker at some of your pictures, and a good belly laugh at others.

A large part of why I feel this way is because as others have suggested - the way speed cameras have been deployed. It's not so much the use of a speed camera I object to, but the lowering of speed limits that goes with it in order to create an artificial tally of "transgressions" so that government can be "seen to be doing something about road safety", without it costing them anything. I hasten to add that a camera would have been the answer on one particular residential road with a 40 limit near me, which is used by a gang of 80mph bikers any time after 9:30pm. But the council decided to lower the speed limit to 30 instead. So now, we have with handheld cameras enforcing the speed limit (during social hours, of course) and targetting Mr. and Mrs. Middle-Englander for doing 35 in the family car. And the 80mph bikers? Oh they still come down this road a couple of nights a week. I have a friend who lives within 50 yards of this road and he hears their engines.