Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Tue Feb 03, 2026 11:41

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 16:47 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:36
Posts: 27
Road charging 'many years away'

A national road pricing scheme cannot go ahead until concerns about privacy, fairness and enforcement can be answered, Ruth Kelly has said.
The transport secretary also said new technology and local pilots were needed first. Her officials said any scheme would be "many years down the line".

Instead, she said, congestion could be tackled now by letting drivers use hard shoulders on busy motorways in England.

The scheme could be extended to parts of the M1, M6, M62, M27, M4 and M5.

The move, which also covers some motorways feeding into the M25, follows a successful trial on the M42 near Birmingham, where the hard shoulder was used as an extra lane and the speed limit reduced to 50mph.

Online petition

Shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said the government's policies on congestion "now lie in tatters".

She said the announcement was "further evidence that their flagship proposal for a spy in the sky national road pricing scheme is going nowhere. They should now rule this option out completely".

Lib Dem Norman Baker described the measure as a "dogs dinner of a policy".

In a keynote speech, Ms Kelly said the hard-shoulder option would also include motorways which join the M25, such as the M20 and M3.

"The M42 has shown it is possible to smooth traffic flow and improve journey reliability on a notoriously congested route"

Ruth Kelly
Transport Secretary

Other options - such as having a motorway lane which could not be used by cars with only one person inside as well as HGV crawler lanes - were also being considered.

And she announced a further four years of funding for local road pricing pilot schemes - which have been described as forerunners for a future national road pricing scheme.

In her speech on Tuesday she made no mention of any plans for national road pricing, which last year prompted a record-breaking 1.8 million people to sign an online Downing Street petition opposing any such plan.

But she later told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "People legitimately raised concerns about privacy, fairness and how any scheme would be enforced.

"We don't have all the answers to those questions yet. We can't introduce this without having answers to those questions.

"What we are going to do is trial technology over the next couple of years - asking private sector companies to work with volunteers and see whether they can answer some of those fundamental issues."

Emissions down

Instead Ms Kelly told a news conference in London that the M42 experiment had given the government valuable experience of a new approach to managing motorway traffic.

"Through a mix of managing speeds and opening the hard shoulder as a running lane, the M42 has shown it is possible to smooth traffic flow and improve journey reliability on a notoriously congested route - and it has done so safely," she said.

"A national road pricing scheme to replace other road taxes is undoubtedly the way forward, but this latest fudge from ministers will please nobody "

Norman Baker
Lib Dems

A Department for Transport feasibility study identified around 500 miles of England's motorways which could benefit from using the hard shoulder as an extra lane.

In the scheme, sensors detect traffic build-up, which triggers signs telling drivers to slow down and use the extra lane. Emergency refuges were established every 500m.

If accidents happen, messages appear telling drivers the lane is closed, allowing emergency services to get through.

In the first six months of the M42 trial, average journey times fell by more than a quarter on the northbound carriageway, fuel consumption reduced by 4% and vehicle emissions dropped by up to 10%.

Confusion?

She said the government was interested in car share lanes, that have been used in the US for some time, where access is limited to vehicles carrying passengers or drivers willing to pay a toll.

"Allowing motorists to enter a reserved lane if they are carrying passengers or willing to pay a toll gives them a real choice without having to change their route," she said.

But Mr Baker said: "A national road pricing scheme to replace other road taxes is undoubtedly the way forward, but this latest fudge from ministers will please nobody.

"It confuses the purpose of a hard shoulder, which we have been told for decades exists for safety reasons. Now it will become partly pay-if-you-want, partly share-if-you-want and partly for emergency vehicles."

Chris Glen, of the Federation of Small Businesses, said his colleagues were "firmly opposed to road pricing where there are no toll-free alternatives".

"This is a good first step, but we still need a better road network and a more integrated transport system to safeguard UK competitiveness."

Driving on the hard shoulder is well established in some European countries, such as Germany and the Netherlands.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7276634.stm


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 18:44 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:36
Posts: 27
I'm glad the government have dropped this (for now at least)...obviously they saw it as political suicide if they brought it in..

The problem with using hard shoulders is...what's going to happen when someone breaks down on one, or if the emergency services need to quickly get to the scene of an accident, and its blocked?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 19:15 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 20:54
Posts: 225
Location: West Midlands
Ruth Kelly wrote:
The M42 has shown it is possible to smooth traffic flow and improve journey reliability on a notoriously congested route

...but what she conveniently forgets to point out is the severalteen miles of stationary traffic immediately before the formerly "notoriously congested route" in either direction.

If you artificially slow free-flowing motorway traffic down to 40mph (via ATM) at the approach to the "experiment", you immediately cause a bottleneck. A slight increase in "allowed" speed after this point will reduce congestion due to the fact that there is less traffic - triples all round to the planners.

However, they (intentionally) fail to take into account the surrounding traffic conditions, which are seriously degraded due to the artificial bottleneck. If they were forced to consider the full impact of ATM and open hard shoulders, things would not look so rosy after all :mad:

Of course, the companies that are going to make hundreds of millions of pounds from implementing all these electronic signs, sensors, cameras and speed detectors will be keeping quiet about "the bigger picture" :roll:

mb


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 21:30 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 00:45
Posts: 1016
Location: Mighty Tamworth
I travel on the M42 every bloody morning. As stated there is heavily congested traffic from my junction Tamworth, all the way to the start of the speed control point. I also am deeply concerned with what happens if there is a serious accident. Although this probably won’t happen because the artificially low limit is enforced by speed cameras :roll: . The two crashes I saw a few weeks ago where a figment of my imagination

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 22:32 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 20:19
Posts: 306
Location: Crewe
From the Government's own report on feasibility of hard-shoulder running: -

Germany
2.5. Germany is unusual in terms of traffic growth as there have been
particular pressures on the road network since re-unification; traffic
growth is predicted at 16% for passenger transport and 58% for freight
by 2015. As a consequence, Germany has a major road building
programme in place with 1,730km of new motorway, 2,162km of
motorway widening and 717 new bypasses planned to be completed
by 2015. There is also a comprehensive five-year plan to extend
motorway traffic control over a further 1,200km of motorway, dynamic
diversion capability over a further 2,400km and to add an additional 15
regional traffic control centres.
[/i]

Similar programmes are in place elsewhere in Europe, yet the countries concerned seem to have plenty over for large rail developments like High Speed Lines. Yet we can apparently not afford anything.

Puts Ms Kelly's announcement in perspective, doesn't it

_________________
Good manners maketh a good motorist


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 23:16 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 14:26
Posts: 4364
Location: Hampshire/Wiltshire Border
Yes, the perspective is that it's a lie to say that building more roads just increases traffic and the Germans know it. If you build enough then there will be no congestion.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 00:36 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 04:10
Posts: 3244
safedriver wrote:
Similar programmes are in place elsewhere in Europe, yet the countries concerned seem to have plenty over for large rail developments like High Speed Lines. Yet we can apparently not afford anything.

Puts Ms Kelly's announcement in perspective, doesn't it


Yes, but we can look with pride to our great achievement.
We have now got over 1 million more public servants than 10 years ago.
We cannot build road or rail anymore, but we're GREAT at building empires, home-grown that is.
We also can fight in foreign climes.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 13:41 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 19:50
Posts: 3369
Location: Lost in the Wilderness
I thought I'd put this in here.

Daily Telegraph

Quote:
Plan would see motorists pay to drive fast
By David Millward, Transport Editor
Last Updated: 9:44am GMT 05/03/2008

Motorists could be charged to drive at 70mph on motorways under plans being considered by ministers.

Andrew Gimson: Ruth Kelly gives the cold shoulder
Telegraph's campaign against road pricing
Have your say: Would you pay to use less congested motorway lanes?
The Department for Transport is examining creating a fast toll lane for drivers willing to pay for a quicker journey on the country's most congested highways in the rush hour.

Ruth Kelly, the Transport Secretary, unveiled her blueprint for a network of toll and car-share lanes yesterday.

At the same time she in effect abandoned plans for national road pricing.

The proposals, due to come into effect over the next five years, include:

• Allowing motorists to use nearly 500 miles of hard shoulder.

• A network of toll lanes.

advertisement• Reserving a lane for car sharers and charging those who use them without passengers.

• Restricting slow-moving traffic to "crawler lanes".

Officials are examining even more radical proposals, including setting different speed limits for each of the lanes, perhaps with a higher limit on toll lanes. "The technology would allow us to do it," a senior official said. "A toll lane could in principle have a higher speed limit."

Road charging comes to Seattle
Underpinning the strategy is the belief that road users would be willing to pay to beat the jams. Miss Kelly said road users put a "premium" on journey reliability.

But proposals for different speed limits in toll lanes horrified some. "I think it is completely mad," said Rob Gifford, the executive director of the road safety group Pacts.

"[It is] not just your speed but the speeds of vehicles around you that matters. The Government would need to think very carefully about the unintended consequence of more crashes on a more controlled network."

Toll lanes, which were proposed by the Tories before the last election, are now seen by the Government as one of a series of options to tackle congestion. Miss Kelly said the debate on a national road pricing scheme had become "sterile".

As reported by The Daily Telegraph last year, she has fixed her attention instead on existing congestion hot spots.

"I believe we need a more immediate and pragmatic focus for the debate, targeting those parts of the network that are busiest, where even minor hold-ups can turn into major delays and where we think we can make real improvements to traffic flow," she said.

As a result, the Government is looking to local authorities to introduced urban congestion-busting schemes, allocating £200 million a year to help them do so.

At the same time, the Government plans to deal with the worst motorway bottlenecks by using the hard shoulder at peak times, building on a successful trial on the M42 outside Birmingham.

Several stretches of motorway have already been earmarked for the new schemes.

They include sections of the M1, M6 and M62 in the immediate future.

In the longer term, schemes could be introduced on the M27 near Southampton, the M4 and M5 near Bristol as well as sections of the M23, M20, M3 and M4 as they feed into the M25 orbital motorway around London.

Miss Kelly envisages using the extra capacity created by opening up the hard shoulder in a number of ways.

Car share lanes are already popular in America, although there is widespread evidence of motorists trying to cheat the system - in some cases using inflatable dolls to create a phantom passenger.

These lanes could be shared with motorists who are prepared to pay to use them.

DfT officials have been looking at schemes such as a 10-mile express lane near Anaheim, California, where individual motorists pay anywhere from 50p to £3.22 to use a car share lane.

A scheme on the outskirts of San Diego charges motorists between 25p and more than £2 to use an express lane, with the price rising as the roads get busier.

Known as "Lexus lanes" by motoring organisations, motorists would pay by topping up a card, which would be read by an overhead gantry as they passed. Those who failed to do so would be spotted by automatic number plate recognition cameras.

Tolls around the world

• France: Motorists pay to use motorways.

• Italy: Tolls on some motorways, others free.

• Portugal: Most major motorways are tolled.

• Switzerland: Drivers must display a badge, costing £30.66 a year.

• Austria: Drivers must display a badge, costing £5.82 for 10 days.

• Belgium: Motorways are free.

• Holland: Motorways free. National road pricing planned.

• Czech Republic: Motorists pay £6.15 for a weekly motorway pass.

• Germany: Motorways are free.

• Slovenia: Major motorways are charged.

• Sweden: Tolls to drive into Stockholm and to cross the Oresund Bridge to Denmark.

• Denmark: Toll for Oresund Bridge.

• Norway: Tolls for several cities and major bridges.

• Australia: Some tolls.

• US: Many roads and bridges are tolled.

Motorways in numbers

• 6 million extra cars on our roads compared with 1997.

• £22bn cost of congestion by 2025, according to Rod Eddington, the Government's transport adviser.

• £200m Planned yearly Government spend on urban congestion schemes.

• 1% of the country's roads are motorways.

• 20% of UK traffic is carried by motorways.

• 1.8m people signed a petition calling on ministers to scrap national road pricing.

• 2 areas - Greater Manchester and Cambs - are ready to try urban road pricing.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 14:42 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:30
Posts: 2053
Location: South Wales (Roving all UK)
I was recently offered a good position with a company that runs active TM systems on a section of our highway network.

A major part of the role was 'demonstarting the benefits' of the investment.

There's been a huge leap of faith not to mention investment in this sort of thing and the benefits are far from clear to those that hold the purse strings.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 09:22 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 04:10
Posts: 3244
I think there's a difference between traffic management and traffic control.
Road pricing is an effort to control the traffic by pricing many "items" beyond the reach of some.
A bit like increasing the price of food in a famine !
I also do not believe, not for one minute, that road pricing has faded from view. it has just gone "below the radar". The massive investment in communication infrastructure the length of the country has to be repaid somehow (ignoring fuel and road tax)
The amount of cameras watching roads is increasing day-by-day.
No, we have not heard the last of road pricing. It has just become a political "hot potato" and has faded until after the next election.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:22 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 13:55
Posts: 2247
Location: middlish
the problem i have with the title of this thread is that it always was going to be many years away.

even if they decided to start implementing it now i think you'd be doing well to have a workable, enforceable system up and running in anything less than 5yrs, 10 being more realistic perhaps.

10 seems like many to me.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 18:29 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 04:10
Posts: 3244
ed_m wrote:
the problem i have with the title of this thread is that it always was going to be many years away.

even if they decided to start implementing it now i think you'd be doing well to have a workable, enforceable system up and running in anything less than 5yrs, 10 being more realistic perhaps.

10 seems like many to me.


Germany already has one running, for trucks.
A basic one, charging for m/ways, could be running in a few years, say 5 at the outside.
Do not underestimate what is already there... !

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:14 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 13:55
Posts: 2247
Location: middlish
jomukuk wrote:
ed_m wrote:
the problem i have with the title of this thread is that it always was going to be many years away.

even if they decided to start implementing it now i think you'd be doing well to have a workable, enforceable system up and running in anything less than 5yrs, 10 being more realistic perhaps.

10 seems like many to me.


Germany already has one running, for trucks.
A basic one, charging for m/ways, could be running in a few years, say 5 at the outside.
Do not underestimate what is already there... !


knew i had more info on this somewhere:

Germany started discussing road tolling for trucks in the 1980s.
In 1994 a trial site was established near Bonn.
In 1995 a time based toll was set up for trucks.
In 1999 they decided to move to a distance based toll with the intention of
- awarding a contract by mid 2001
- starting operation nationally in 2003
(just 18months to set the system up)
In Sept 2000 the finding of an independant comission fed into this process.
Appeals & wrangling over appointment of operators & system used meant the contract wasnt fixed until 2004.
The system went into operation in 2005.
Late 2006 no official plans to extend the charging scheme existed.

[Thinking Highways Q4/2007]

So I still say 5years would be doing well.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 47 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.092s | 12 Queries | GZIP : Off ]