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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 20:33 
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:roll: I managed to post this as a reply to a different topic :roll: :oops:

Kids! :roll: They decided to argue with the cat :yikes: No .. not my wife :lol: but the cat I think the cat won too :lol:

Anyway.. back to the plot.. :popcorn:

Bolton News wrote:

I wasn’t asleep, says crash driver
By Joanne Rowe
A DRIVER whose lorry overturned on the motorway, killing another motorist, has told a jury he was not asleep at the wheel.

David Walsh was on his second day as a delivery driver for supermarket chain Aldi when his lorry crashed near Little Hulton in September, 2006.

The widowed father-of-three repeatedly stressed to the jury at Bolton Crown Court yesterday that he had no memory of the accident, or any of the eight-miles he travelled after passing Bolton West services on his way back to his Middleton depot.

Walsh, aged 44, of Morar Road, Dukinfield, denies causing death by dangerous driving.

The court heard that his lorry smashed through the central reservation into the opposite carriageway, colliding with a van driven by William Colloff, aged 39, who was killed, and a Vauxhall Vectra with Roger Bailey at the wheel, who was seriously injured.

Mr Colloff, a father-of-one, was had been preparing to set up home with his fiancee in Westhoughton.

Walsh told the court: "The last thing I remember is driving down the M61 passing Anderton services, looking at my watch and thinking I'll be back in the depot in 10 to 15 minutes'.

"The next thing I remember is an ambulanceman or a policeman in a high-vis jacket attempting to put a neck brace on me."

Walsh was kept in Hope Hospital overnight with cuts and bruises and a broken finger.

He had been on his way back to his depot at 6.30pm after making deliveries to stores at Preston and Kendal.

He told the court he wished he could recall what had happened.

"I wake up at 2.30 or 3 every morning thinking What's gone on?' because I also need to know for myself, apart from for the deceased's family. It is doing my head in," he said The court heard Walsh, who had been driving lorries for 22 years, had begun working for Aldi two weeks before the accident.

He woke at 6am to go to work but his lorry was not ready and did not set off until lunchtime.

He denied he was in a hurry to get home when the crash happened and that he carried on driving while feeling drowsy.

But he accepted that he must not have been aware of what was happening when the lorry ran on to the hard shoulder and then crossed three lanes of traffic before overturning in the opposite carriageway.

The trial continues today.


He has been found guilty today of causing death by dangerous and will be sentenced March 6th and the judge plans jail term.

Walsh - per the report - claims no memory of the drive along M61 at all :yikes:

His defence says he suffered a memory loss as a result of the crash trauma.

Prosecution allege he either nodded off or was daydreaming. Walsh drove along the hard shoulder.. hit cones and veered into the central reserve before toppling onto the North bound carriageway. :roll: Prosecution suggested an alert driver would have avoided this and controlled the vehicle.

Again.. I will support BRAKE on this. Employers need to set realistic deadlines under their duty of care to the employee and the public. Deadlines should be flexible and with respect to traffic and weather conditions.


We only have one issue with BRAKE really.. SPEED CAMS .. and this incident again underpins why focussing on speed alone is daft when we all know prime causes are not being tackled and indeed sacrificed to a money grubbing scheme which spits in the face of the image it tries to portray. :banghead:

We need to get message across that driving or even cycling whilst unfit is a complete :nono:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 09:06 
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I'm sure Nos will tell you all about this, but forcing a driver to sit in a break room for 6 hours it going to make him more tired than working him for 6 hours. It's not unusual for a driver to be on duty for 12+ hours (legal max. being either 13 or 15) so the length of the shift in itself might not have been the cause.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 04:58 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
I'm sure Nos will tell you all about this, but forcing a driver to sit in a break room for 6 hours it going to make him more tired than working him for 6 hours. It's not unusual for a driver to be on duty for 12+ hours (legal max. being either 13 or 15) so the length of the shift in itself might not have been the cause.


Sixy's right-and it's a fairly regular occurrence. Try sitting in a room with blank walls,no stimulus and nothing to do for 6 hours then drive... yet if you drop off out of boredom they'll wake you up and have a go at you saying 'we aren't paying you to sleep'-or they'll refuse to let you get your head down in an empty truck til the load is ready and force you to stay in the room.

Then we get told 'well, you've not done anything much today, you can have a long day tomorrow!'... :@

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:41 
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As always in these cases, regardless of the causes, I fail to see how socioty benefits from sending him to Gaol!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 13:23 
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I do hope BRAKE and ROADPEACE are lurking and read your posts Nos and Sixy. BRAKE for all its sins on the speed nonsense - has made impacts into this area of road safety and maybe they need to look into this .. and do the stuff they do much better at :wink:

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Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 02:41 
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I'd like to add something here that's never said.....


The South East car ferries since the building of the Channel Tunnel have abandoned the Zeebrugge and Ostend routes with cabins..

It's a rush now for drivers across the shorter Calais -Dover route. Fine for those that live in the S.E. but useless for those further away...who now go short of sleep because of the short crossing. P&O please note.....SPEED is NOT the only consideration..That's why you've lost the market.(may as well take the tunnel).

.......and every morning...LOT'S of tired out drivers arrive on our shores after 1 to 2 hrs break with no sleep bound for a further 8hrs at the wheel on U.K roads.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 21:09 
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Draco wrote:
I'd like to add something here that's never said.....


The South East car ferries since the building of the Channel Tunnel have abandoned the Zeebrugge and Ostend routes with cabins..

It's a rush now for drivers across the shorter Calais -Dover route. Fine for those that live in the S.E. but useless for those further away...who now go short of sleep because of the short crossing. P&O please note.....SPEED is NOT the only consideration..That's why you've lost the market.(may as well take the tunnel).

.......and every morning...LOT'S of tired out drivers arrive on our shores after 1 to 2 hrs break with no sleep bound for a further 8hrs at the wheel on U.K roads.



True. I used to like snoozing on the long haul ferries. However, when we do the Dover crossing - we tend to stay over in or around Dover in a B&B. Admittedly an extra expense.. but of course I am usually the family man on the normal jollies as opposed to the trucky or rep with a deadline.


Have to say we have used Brittany Ferries to Normandy/Brittany on occasion as we rather like this area of France to drive through too. These do have cabins and are rather good if heading Southwards :) These ferries are rather pleasant - even the sea-cat! :lol: Wildy was not sick on that one. :lol: [size=9]She gets sea sick[/i]

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Smilies are contagious
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It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !

But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 15:59 
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Update - he got four and half years.


Bolton Press wrote:
Death crash HGV driver is jailed
By Amanda Smith
THE devastated fianceé of man who was killed when a HGV ploughed into his car as the driver slept at the wheel, has made a tearful plea to other motorists.

Lisa D urged all drivers to take a break if they become sleepy while behind the wheel.

She spoke out as lorry driver, David Walsh, was jailed for four-and-a-half years after being found guilty of causing the death by dangerous driving of William Colloff.





The accident happened in September 2006 as Walsh was driving a lorry belonging to his supermarket employers, Aldi, towards Manchester on the M61.

Mrs D, aged 39, was about to set up home with Mr Colloff in Westhoughton.

She said: "No sentence can bring Will back to the friends and family he left behind.

"I want to urge drivers that if they feel tired, to always take a break because there can be devastating consequences if they do not."


:yesyes:

Walsh was found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving after a three day trial in February.

Bolton Crown Court heard the crash happened on September 18, 2006, at 6.30pm on the M61 towards Manchester As the carriageway turned to the right, just past Little Hulton, Walsh's lorry continued straight ahead on to the hard shoulder, smashing through two sets of cones and warning signs prior to the start of roadworks.
:cry:
He then hit the metal crash barriers and veered to the right across the three lanes of the carriageway.

Mr Colloff, who owned his own financial advice business in Todmorden, Yorkshire, was travelling to Westhoughton to see Mrs D and take some things to the house they had just bought.

But he never completed the journey and was hit by the HGV, suffering fatal injuries.
:cry:
Another motorist, Roger Bailey, was seriously injured in the crash and is now unable to work.

Walsh told the court he had no recollection of the accident or the minutes leading up to it, but said he had not fallen asleep.

Mr Colloff was a devoted father to his son, Jack, who is now aged 12.

Passing sentence on Walsh, aged 44, of Morar Road, Dukinfield, Judge Stephen Everett said: "You are a hard working, respectable man.

"But this crash, caused by your dangerous driving, had consequences for a large number of people."




I think the judge passed fair comment and the fiancee's comments are also very fair minded.

I think if he had been waiting in tiring boredom - then this is something which BRAKE should address too. Making employers realise their duty of care to driving staff and the public at large was the original "raison d'etre" after all ..

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !

But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 19:19 
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Mad Moggie wrote:
I think if he had been waiting in tiring boredom - then this is something which BRAKE should address too. Making employers realise their duty of care to driving staff and the public at large was the original "raison d'etre" after all ..


This. I'd be intrested to know what the employer expected of him, and how that stacks up. It's all well and good to jail him as guilty of the crime, but the fact remains if he was expected to complete a job that made him too tired to drive then others must answer. I'm sure the firm will have all their paperwork in order, and at the least be able to demonstrate their lip service gestures to the relevant laws. I've worked for firms who ram health and safety down your neck non stop, and remind you of your duty to comply with H&S, evan so far as scold you on account of it, and all the while setting tasks in the pretence they think you can complete them safely, with the unspoken knowledge there's always someone else willing to do your job if you can't.

Of course, it could be the employer is genuinely completely innocent, but unless the investigation carefully scrutinises the tasks they set driver the verdict is a pointless knee jerk reaction.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 20:56 
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hairyben wrote:
Mad Moggie wrote:
I think if he had been waiting in tiring boredom - then this is something which BRAKE should address too. Making employers realise their duty of care to driving staff and the public at large was the original "raison d'etre" after all ..


This. I'd be intrested to know what the employer expected of him, and how that stacks up. It's all well and good to jail him as guilty of the crime, but the fact remains if he was expected to complete a job that made him too tired to drive then others must answer. I'm sure the firm will have all their paperwork in order, and at the least be able to demonstrate their lip service gestures to the relevant laws. I've worked for firms who ram health and safety down your neck non stop, and remind you of your duty to comply with H&S, evan so far as scold you on account of it, and all the while setting tasks in the pretence they think you can complete them safely, with the unspoken knowledge there's always someone else willing to do your job if you can't.

Of course, it could be the employer is genuinely completely innocent, but unless the investigation carefully scrutinises the tasks they set driver the verdict is a pointless knee jerk reaction.


I've heard every excuse over the years. However, there is an uneasy grain of truth in some of the above comments - which I think Ted was observing and aknowledging here.


BRAKE when it started impacted heavily on the duty of care which those employing folk as drivers should respect. The hit hard and improved things. This is what BRAKE do BEST and they deserve much plaudits over this. However, there is still a lot of work to do here - and - I can only go off the facts as rreported by the Bolton press here... but if he had had to wait - then this does cause fatigue and perhaps th employer could look at it procedures here.

Having passed this comment. the driver still has to judge fitness and perhaps just a coffee /leg stretch st the services might have helped hm lots here.

If you feel sleepy - please make for nearest services and just take 5 - even if this means browsing in the overpriced shop. :wink:

Do remember that this family nearly lost Wildy :neko: through an ill driver and we lost Ferdl through a badly maintained lorry. We thus want folk out there top check vehicles and if they do not feel well /.. to at least accept this, seek help and LIVE as a result. I accept that sometimes .. :cry: :cry: :cry: :( :cry: :cry:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 23:45 
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It's all well and good saying 'stop if you feel tired', but it's not that simple.

OK, so he was on a motorway, so it's reasonable to expect there to be service areas. BUT are they actually frequent enough? Would feeling tired be an adequate excuse to stop on the hard shoulder?

If he'd been on an A-road, then he could well travel miles without passing anywhere suitable to stop.

Then there's the question from his employer as to why he made an unauthorised stop. Maybe not the case for someone like Aldi, but certainly for high-value goods, drivers can't just stop anywhere and anywhen they want to, and if they make "unauthorised" stop outside of legally required breaks, they are likely to be brought to task over it. In this case, and because he'd been hanging about for 6 hours already, he might have been under pressure to get back to the yard before his hours ran out and he had to spend the night in the truck.

I'm not justifying driving whilst unfit, but unfortunately this case just goes to highlight yet again the total lack of understanding of the problems faced by our professional drivers by the general public. As Hairyben quite rightly states, this accident is not just the responsibility of one man. Nobody should feel obliged to drive whilst tired, or be repromanded for stopping for a rest, but unfortunately most haulage and logistics companies believe that so long as they are sticking to the WTD and drivers hours rules, its perfectly OK to push drivers to the limits (and yes this DOES include setting targets that are only attainable by exceeding speed limits and running everywhere that's NSL on the limiter)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:44 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
It's all well and good saying 'stop if you feel tired', but it's not that simple.

OK, so he was on a motorway, so it's reasonable to expect there to be service areas. BUT are they actually frequent enough? Would feeling tired be an adequate excuse to stop on the hard shoulder?


If an emergency - as in feeling yourself going a bit "heavy" and just to take a sip of coffee - then I do not think we have too much of an issue with a 5-10 minute emergency to tide over till you can get to the nexte service station,



Quote:
If he'd been on an A-road, then he could well travel miles without passing anywhere suitable to stop.

Then there's the question from his employer as to why he made an unauthorised stop. Maybe not the case for someone like Aldi, but certainly for high-value goods, drivers can't just stop anywhere and anywhen they want to, and if they make "unauthorised" stop outside of legally required breaks, they are likely to be brought to task over it. In this case, and because he'd been hanging about for 6 hours already, he might have been under pressure to get back to the yard before his hours ran out and he had to spend the night in the truck.

I'm not justifying driving whilst unfit, but unfortunately this case just goes to highlight yet again the total lack of understanding of the problems faced by our professional drivers by the general public. As Hairyben quite rightly states, this accident is not just the responsibility of one man. Nobody should feel obliged to drive whilst tired, or be repromanded for stopping for a rest, but unfortunately most haulage and logistics companies believe that so long as they are sticking to the WTD and drivers hours rules, its perfectly OK to push drivers to the limits (and yes this DOES include setting targets that are only attainable by exceeding speed limits and running everywhere that's NSL on the limiter)


Then we need to bring this to the public's attention to this problem. Of course, there is the danger that Nanny State might pass even more laws - but these employers do have a duty of care to their employees and the public at large - and setting unrealistic targets and pushing staff to "endurance limits" does need fighting against.


I wonder? Europe does not allow hauliers to work weekends. You see them all stacked up in motels or park-ups. Would this work for UK? :scratchchin:

What do the truckies on board think?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:23 
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One question here that bothers me is:

What purpose is served by gaoling him? The judge said he was a respectable etc person. He is undoubted racked with remorse which will be with him forever and is certain (I would say) never to do it again.

So - no need to rehabilitate, he is probably punishing himself - what does society get back from this - it smacks of vengeance for vengeance sake to me?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 14:39 
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prof beard wrote:
One question here that bothers me is:

What purpose is served by gaoling him? The judge said he was a respectable etc person. He is undoubted racked with remorse which will be with him forever and is certain (I would say) never to do it again.

So - no need to rehabilitate, he is probably punishing himself - what does society get back from this - it smacks of vengeance for vengeance sake to me?


I guess it serves as a stark warning to others in a simular position, of which there are probably many, given that for every fatality there are hundreds of near misses. The upside for lorry drivers being a headline-making court case is something they can use in defence when dealing with pushy employers. Which, again, is why I think the employers should be investigated- being able to say or insinuate "you can go to jail too" carries a fair amount of weight...

And of course lets not forget, despite this being a tragic accident, the driver did acually fail in his care of duty to other road users, regardless of whatever pressures he may have been under. How much "conscious decision" there is in such a failing is a moot point...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 13:13 
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As sixy the red says it is not just a case of "stop any where" to take a break as there are a lot of factors to consider on this such as where can I take a break and more importantly is it safe to have a break at this place ?

Obviously we only see the facts as reported to sell newspapers and presumably no one on this site was at the full court hearing so could there be more to this case than has been reported.

Quite truly he could have had memory loss due to the trauma of the accident and after all it was an "Accident" and not a blatant attempt to take a life such as the two youths who "DELIBARATELY" threw a concrete block on to a passing lorry off a bridge in Northampton last year and got 2 + 1/2 yrs and a 1 year sentence and "KILLED" the driver can someone tell me what the difference is between this "ACCIDENT" and the "DELIBARATE" act as it seems the courts take a more lenient view of the deliberate act than the one which was a genuine accident?

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