Safe Speed Forums

"Cram", you say? I congratulate you on your mastery of Daily-Mail-Speak. I merely pointed out that you are a holder of opinions unencumbered by fact. At least your last post tacitly admits that the cheap benefit jibe was merely a rationalisation of opinions you already held. That means we are getting somewhere. We could have another debate (if you like) about the workings of the international labour market, but again it's a bit OT. If you dislike immigrants for whatever reason, why don't you just say so and stop inventing other reasons for it? It certainly can't have anything to do with space - or shall we work out how much public space is taken up every day by cars, even when not in use?

WRT home working and flexi-time.

Flexi-time is a nice idea, but how do you cope when the person you need to talk to in another company isn't in the office at the same time as you because they're on flexi-time?

I need to make daily phonecalls to sales engineers at various truck manufacturers around the place. I start work at 8am, and most of these sales engineers don't start til 9am. This means that if I need to chase information I have to wait for them to be in the office before I can start working.

Likewise with home working - we have files and files of technical documentation here in the office that I need access to constantly. It would be unfeasable and administratively very dangerous to copy it x number of times and distribute it for home work - there would be no proper revision control for starters.

WRT imigration. And thanks Twister - you beat me to it! In my area there are LOADS of unemployed white people, because the local employers can take on the immigrants cheeper. Those who don't speak english are a liability because they can't understand instructions. When you consider that most of the unskilled labour in this area is employed in warehousing and distribution, that causes problems with badly / dangersouly loaded vehicles, pallets collapsing etc.

Bigben - I see your problem with HGV's blocking the streets and I would suggest that you write to the local RDC. More often than not, the drivers would PREFER to be in and out before rush hour, but 9 times out of 10, they are delayed by f*ckups at the warehouse (see previous comments about non-english speaking migrant workers).

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Uh oh, all this out of one throwaway line

Yes we're going OT here but, Daily Mail speak or not, there is a perception amongst a good number of the 'indigenous'* population that modern day immigration is getting beyond a joke. They go out and about and hear all sorts of odd languages spoken, they get told that these people are taking their money in benefits and free handouts, taking their houses and their jobs and then they watch the TV news and see a reporter secretly filming yet more of them trying to gain illegal acces to the UK. They watch Motorways Cops on TV and see yet another so-and-so talking in some foreign tongue getting pulled over and it transpires they have no driving licence, tax, insurance etc etc and they think about what all this costs to themselves.
Asylum seekers cross many national boundaries just to get to the UK (regardless of the fact that its illegal because asylum should only be claimed in the first country the seeker arrives at) for the simple reason they have the idea that we will feed, house and clothe them.
So I think BB can be excused a throwaway line about imiigrants because he's only saying what millions of others are thinking even if the statistics and facts may not support our prejudices.

*Word used with caution because I realise that if one extrapolates back in time far enough there is an argument to suggest we are all "bloody foreigners"

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

It's my emphasis in the quote above - I don't think it requires further comment.

I did not intervene in this thread because of a "throwaway" line - I intervened because of the palapable hostility towards weepej for the apparent crime of introducing fact and evidence into the argument.

For what it's worth, I am in favour of flexi-time and home-working options. In response to Sixy's very important point about unemployment, I am also in favour of improved pay and conditions for workers, and of the enforcement of those conditions - if employers are not allowed to exploit people (and, for example, supermarkets to demand prices which pretty much require exploitation), then there will be no advantage in employing immigrants over local people, and if the jobs are not there then people will not come for them. I just hope that the same people who complain about immigrants taking their jobs are also supporting workers and their unions when they campaign for precisely the things I have mentioned.

But, back on topic, the thread was supposed to be about congestion, and all with regard to that all this stuff is mere tinkering. Are there people here who seriously don't believe that congestion is anything to do with car use, or that reducing car use would result in less congestion? If so, then there's an odder language spoken here than any I have heard from other continents...

Actually it does from me. I don't know if the facts and figures demostrate whether immigrants as a whole are or are not taking more from than they are giving to the UK. I suspect that you don't either.
Many people in this country believe that they are taking more than they are putting back in and it is from that basis that opinions are formed.
Just like with the AGW debate I remain in the "concerned" bracket at this moment in time until it is proven conclusively to me one way or the other whether I have grounds for those concerns or not.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Yes, "cram", I say. And since when did the Daily Mail come into this? I'm afraid you've lost me on that one, I don't read the Mail, I read the Times.

And yes, I do dislike immigrants (I thought that was evident from my earlier post - obviously not), and I don't have to invent reasons for that dislike.

I don't know enough about the international labour market to have a debate about it - I'm not really interested in it.

And again, I'm not in the least interested in how much space our cars take up, even when not in use.

What I am interested in, is how we can reduce congestion, and along with other points already mentioned, I put forward another reason that may be contributing to congestion.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

It's very convenient to hold an opinion so woolly it cannot be either proved or disproved. "Immigrants take more than they are giving" means what, exactly? Is it a financial calculation? A judgement about the relative merits of biriyani and fish n chips? A vague suspicion that foreigners are ungenerous? All I have done is expose one widely-held falsehood about immigrants, as propogated by BB. Do you disagree with the idea that if an opinion is supported by beliefs that can (in whole or in part) be demonstrated to be false, than you should modify that opinion accordingly? It is interesting that you have nothing to say about the employment questions I raised, or indeed about car use as a cause of congestion. I await with interest a point that can be argued, as opposed to a deluge of opinions...

But unless the immigrants are being paid less than the minimum wage (which does happen, but is not general) that raises the question of why the indigenous people won't take the jobs. Is it that the employers perceive the immigrants as being more hard-working? And if the natives refuse to take these jobs, why aren't their benefits being stopped? Also a lot of the immigrants at present are white themselves, the typical stereotype of a hard-working immigrant being a Pole, so you can't really draw a simple racial distinction.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

My bold. Yes you're right there Peter, it was a bad choice of phrase on my part.

Re benifits being stopped - I agree totally, people who can work but refuse to do so SHOULD be punished and forced into work.

Re minimum wage. Is it really enough? (I don't know, I've never had to live on it). I see houses and flats locally with litterally about 15 people living in them, so the cost of living is tiny compared to 1 or 2 people trying to live in the same circumstances - so it might well be the case that the minimum wage simply isn't enough to support people who aren't prepared to cram themselves into, quite frankly, squalid conditions.

I won't try to deceive you - I'm in the same camp as BottyBurp - I simply DO NOT like having mass migration of unskilled workers. Skilled workers coming here to fulfill a specific role is quite different, although I'm not sure I agree 100& with employers recruiting from overseas when there is such dreadful unemployment in certain areas of the UK.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

BottyBurp, the reason theclaud congratulated you on your excellent grasp of daily mail speak was because they, like you, have a nasty hidden agenda and use any available argument to have a dig at immigration. You aren't really doing yourself any favours. You say you dislike immigrants but cannot offer any reasons for this (I suspect because you have none and are simply repeating tired and incorrect information). It seems to me that you haven't the ability to think about the wider issues of congestion and so simply 'blame it on the immigrants'. Personally I think congestion could be reduced by increasing emigration, with you first.

Does it bother you to be mistaken for a Daily Mail reader? An interesting class angle is creeping in.

If you are not interested in the causes of immigration, then you are not in a credible position to complain about it. It is quite likely, if you are not thinking about it, that you are doing many things that fuel immigration.

Similarly, if you refuse to use your car less, you are in no position to complain about congestion. Cars are the elephant in this particular room. There is a simple way to reduce congestion available to most of us, and yet we whitter on about flexi-time and Romanian potato packers. Safespeed is a large organisation. If you are serious about reducing congestion, why are you not advocating reduced car use?

Cue another example of BB putting hands over ears and going "la la can't hear you".

Oh dear - has it really come to pass that one cannot hold an opinon on a matter without needing to back it up with facts?

Welcome to C+ people...

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Doh, really?! Thanks for pointing that out to me

I do not have a 'nasty hidden agenda'. I may not like Marmite - do I have to have a specific reason? I do not like Immigration - end of. I do not have to justify that to you or anyone else.

But at least I'm honest enough to say so, and I'm not in the least bit ashamed of it.

If you lived where I live, maybe you would be able to see why I dislike Immigration so much.

Oh, and

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

It means that this is what a lot of people in this country believe. They believe it because this is the overall picture they are given, very few people take the time to discover the positives for themselves.



I have no need to discuss the nitty-gritty of those actual issues, well the employment one at least, with you because I am not trying to 'prove' whether you are right or wrong. I am merely pointing out that people have a belief based on the messages they receive and also what they want to believe. Sure, have a go at BB for his beliefs, then go about tackling the millions of others one by one who hold the same belief. Because he ain't alone, not by a long chalk.

As for cars causing congestion, yeah they do IMHO. And the M25 experience suggests that if you build a new road such as the London Orbital, then people will use it sometimes causing it to rapidly fill to capacity. The M25 had only just opened when it was suggested it needed to be widened to four lanes. Where did all these cars come from?
I wonder what would happen on the main M6 through the midlands carpark zone if the M6 Toll road were made toll free? Would the main M6 suddenly flow a lot more freely, or would more local people be encouraged to use it believeing it should now be less hassle as everyone can use the 'toll' road.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Of course you can hold an opinion, but surely you must see that having a factual basis for those opinions gives your argument much more credibility. thecluade quite rightly states that without being prepared to make changes to their habits motorists really are in no position to moan about congestion. At the end of the day we need to create a culture less reliant on motorised private transport.

Of course not. People can hold whatever opinion they like. If, however, they wish to persuade people of anything, or present or refute any kind of argument, they'll need a bit more than that. And if they're going to get shirty about their opinions being challenged, then they'll have to back them up. I was under the impression that Safespeed is a campaigning group. If it wants to be taken seriously, it'll have to better than "speed cameras are bad - in our opinion".

If you tell me that Safespeed is nothing more than a lot of people with a lot of unsupported opinions, you could probably get me to go away with very little fuss...

Hello iagw

Edit: sorry - repeating what iagw says. We must have posted just about the same time

Ummm, no - why should I? Is the Daily Mail a quality paper? I don't read it so I wouldn't know...


I know what I believe causes immigration, so I can mention it.


Ok - you got me. How do work that one out?


Ummm, yes I am. Why should I use my car less when the LA are allowed to create artificial congestion? I believe there are several factors that contribute to congestion, which are readily resolved, if the political will was there. And why should I use my car less? I was able to use it years ago and freely travel my country which had less congestion then, why should I stop now?


I think you're the one that's being prejudiced and bigoted here.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

well, that's MIGHTY kind of you...


The facts I base my opinions on, are the facts that I see with my own eyes, on a daily basis.


IMO, when you consider that some congestion is ARTIFICIALLY created, why the hell should motorists change their habits? They've paid for their cars/insurance/VED etc. Those that can't hack the ever-growing journey times WILL change their habits in time (and maybe get a bike). But that doesn't mean drivers have to be happy about it, and so maybe they can, in fact, complain.


Nah, biking is fun!

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Wow - another gracious person. My humble thanks to you...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

IMO safespeed has proven that speed cameras aren't doing what they are claimed to be doing by proving (using DfT statistics) that speeding isn't responsible for enough accidents to support the claimed reductions bandied about by the SCPs.

Back OT. I have very little choice - I work 25 miles from home in a unique roll, so I can't just move jobs closer to home. My partner works just down the road from home, so either way ONE of us has to commute to work. Most of my collegues live within a 5 mile radius, so carsharing isn't going to affect me. Oh, and in the good weather I use my bike whenever I can, so yes I do believe I'm 'doing my bit' to reduce congestion.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.