Safe Speed Forums

I see a lot of 3.5 ton vans pulling trailers, any trailer on a 3.5 ton van pushes the Maximum Authorised Mass, (Gross Weight) over 3.5 tons, & few of them, as the law requires has a tacho fitted & few, if any of the drivers abide by the relevant driving / working hours law for the driver of a vehicle over 3.5 tons MAM.
In my area no action is taken against them by the police or the VOSA, yet these vehicles must be as dangerous as any other vehicle over 3.5 tons, that is being driven outside of the relevant driving hours law & surely these vehicles are also not insured (they are being run illegally), so why do we see so much more action against HGV's than vans ?.
I also regularly see 7.5 tonners & mini buses (with more than 8 seats,) being operated commercially with no O licence. By the VOSA's own figures & admissions these vehicles cannot be insured for the purpose to which they are being put & they are also far more likely to be involved in an accident, so why should we have to share a road with them & why is it that some illegal motoring activity is condoned by a total lack of enforcement, whilst other issues are enforced to the letter.

FWIW, You are incorrect on most counts.

WRT trailers, any vehicle can legally tow what the manufacturer says it can. However, for vehicles with MAM 3.5 tonnes and under, this will not be over 3.5 tonnes trailer weight or 7 tonnes GTW. The MAM of the vehicle doesn't include any trailer -- that's included in the Gross Train Weight (GTW) and the towing limit figures.

The law does not require a tacho on any van that is not used for hire or reward or the commercial carriage of goods. It also does not require a tacho if the trailer is plant (e.g. a builder's van towing a cement mixer). It does not require a tachograph if when in commercial use the train isn't over 3.5 tonnes - even if the MAM of the combination is. It doesn't require a tachograph if the train weight is over 3.5 tonnes and the journey is not for commercial purposes (e.g. towing your caravan on holiday).

See http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/Safe&LegalTowingShort.pdf for some info from the NTTA.

HTH,

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Will

The VOSA site says


Wilcove wrote.


The VOSA say


THE VOSA also say that it is the law that tachos are fitted for plant.



So Willcove you are wrong on most counts !!!!

I'm not quoting, to avoid this being really long. We have several things to consider:

• Maximum allowable mass (MAM) of the goods vehicle.
• Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) of the trailer
• Maximum Train Weight (MTW)
• Maximum Permissible Weight (MPW)

Now, the MPW is the smaller of (MAM of vehicle + MTPLM of trailer) or MTW.

FWIW, you did claim that the trailer pushes the MAM of the vehicle over 3.5 tonnes, and that is incorrect. The MAM of the vehicle is the same - it is the MAM of the combination (which VOSA call the MPW) that increases.

We're considering the tachograph rules, which I'll just call tacho. I'll not deal with drivers' hours rules, which apply in most cases where the vehicle is driven for commercial purposes even if tacho doesn't apply.

Now, from your post, VOSA say that where the maximum permissible weight of the vehicle, including any trailer, exeeds 3.5 tonnes, tacho applies provided that it is being used for an operation in scope of tacho. On every VOSA quote you provide, you will note that the operation has to come within the rules for tacho to apply.

So, if you never use the vehicle for operations that come within the rules, you do not need a tacho. Operations not for hire or reward and not for "commercial purposes" do not come under the rules. So, if you never tow for operations within the scope of the rules, you do not need a tachograph even if you tow with a MPW exceeding 3.5 tonnes for operations that are exempt. IOW, if you only use the van for towing your caravan, boat, aircraft, or even for tipping your garden refuse, you won't need a tachograph.

As for driving the van solo, it has a MAM of no more than 3.5 tonnes, so tacho doesn't apply. Even if you have a good vehicle with MAM 3.5 tonnes that has a towbar, you don't need a tachograph unless you actually tow commercial purposes.

That said, I'll give you that I was mistaken WRT the treatment of plant and whether it is the gross weight or MPW that determines whether a combination comes under the rules. I quoted from the National Trailer & Towing Association - who should know what they're talking about in this respect.

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Will

I love the way arguments on this site are so involved and technical!

It would take me hours to figure out what you two are saying, but the simple fact that you seem to know the subject and can discourse in such detail is somehow comforting.

Maybe I need a break from C+!

Yes, it's like Sumo wrestling. You don't really understand it, but it's strangely soothing

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

That's the frightening thing about this. Like so many rules, you don't know about them until you get done for breaking them or you hear of someone else getting done. The rules are getting evermore complex yet enforced with a pedantic zeal that beggars belief.

Just my €0.02

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Will

But these are hardly new rules.
Tacho / Driving hours law is E.C. Regs 3820/85 & E.C. Regs 3821/85 & they are enabled under Uk law by the Transport Act 1968. These rules & a booklet that tells you in very simple terms how it applies to you is available from the VOSA either to down load or via a free booklet available from any VOSA test centre.

I was alluding to the whole mess that is the legislation around trailers. Even the Government can't get it right. For example, until recently, the DVLA booklet D100 (What you need to know about driving licenses) stated that B+E category was limited to 4.25 tonnes "MPW" (with B+E, you can tow whatever the manufacturer says you can).

Then there is the recurring fiasco at roadside checks - fiasco because (apparently) some of the inspectors don't know how to weigh a trailer. According to one NTTA member, they'll weigh each wheel and the jockey in turn without using packing to ensure the trailer is in the same attitude each time. Needless to say, with a twin-axle trailer, the scales are recording the weight normally on the wheel being checked plus some extra due to trying to lift the second axle off the ground

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Will

I think you will find that B+E is limited to 4.25 tons, as that is what the driving licence allows 3.5 tons of vehicle plus 750kg of trailer. anything beyond that comes under catagory D1.

No - with B+E, you can drive any car/trailer combination that meets all of the following requirements:

• Gross weight of car (AFAICT, excluding the drawbar load - or noseweight) does not exceed the lesser of the MAM of the car or 3.5 tonnes.
• Front and rear axle weights of the car (AFAICT, taking account of noseweight) do not exceed the limits stipulated by the car manufacturer.
• The gross weight of the trailer does not exceed the MTPLM for that trailer.
• The gross train weight does not exceed the maximum gross train weight for the car.

(BTW, D1 is for "minibuses"; the "catch-all" category for non-buses is C+E).

The 4.25 tonne limitation is an error that, for me, first came to light when a friend wanted to buy an Ifor Williams double horsebox to tow behind a Discovery. The gross train weight would have exceeded 4.25 tonnes (and the maximum permissible weight of the combination was over 5 tonnes). At the time, the DVLA's D100 leaflet said for B+E:
So, Ifor Williams lost the sale of the double horsebox and, on behalf of my friend who doesn't have Internet access, I wrote to them pointing out this limitation and asking why they said on their website that horsebox and Disco was legal under B+E when the DVLA info implied that you'd need a full C+E ("HGV1"). After some weeks, Ifor Williams replied that my message had caused much consternation. However, after investigating they were sure that the DVLA leaflet was incorrect and that the 4.25 tonne restriction was an error.

I phoned DVLA and, after I was passed from pillar to post a few times, someone at DVLA confirmed the error. However, because of the cost of reprinting, they had no intention of replacing those leaflets with ones that told the truth. (FFS! that leaflet is the only thing that many people use to identify the privileges of their licence).

With all that said, I looked on the DVLA website yesterday and found that they have at least replaced the downloadable PDF, which now states:(BTW, nowhere on either the old or new D100 leaflet do they state whether the 750 kg trailer is actual gross weight or MTPLM)

FWIW, I've just noticed an interesting spin-off here. To take a test for B+E, one driving school claimed that you had to turn up with a car/trailer combination that wasn't covered by category B. For example, where the MAM of the combination exceeded 3.5 tonnes (and that was the reason they taught using a heavy car and fairly large box trailer). But this new definition merely says that the trailer must have MTPLM over 750 kg. So, you could have a vehicle that was both in category B and in B+E! (e.g. a car with MAM of 1.5 tonnes towing a trailer with MTPLM of 1 tonne). But ... I wonder whether DVLA have made yet another error and just hope that some unfortunate wretch doesn't turn up for a B+E test with a car/trailer combination that would be legal under category B only to be told that his vehicle is unsuitable for the test ;(

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Will

Yep, sorry I knew D1 was Non PCV mini bus, I meant C1 & that would have been wrong also.
one advantage with the DVLA's definition of Car & trailer for B+E is that the larger the vehicle & trailer combination the easier it is to reverse, I use to do some work for the local youth & community service, mostly driving a Trannie minibus & twin axle 20ft caravan, It could be reverse parked into a space 1.5 times it's own length & into the tightest spots with absolute ease. Where as the small single axle on the car was much too quick in it's response to place with this ease.
The small HGV "city" twin axle trailers used by some delivery companies can be lively to reverse, especially on a 3 axle tractor unit & for the same reason, (they also have rear wheel steer which can add to the fun if you are not in steering straight prior to the reverse.) As can the small trailers they tow behind coaches, ever tried to reverse 11mts of rigid vehicle plus a trailer you cannot see ?, I have done it a few enough times to know the only way to do it, & only then if the trailer is big enough to do it, is to wait until you get a glimpse of the trailer & then if you have sufficient room to respond put some lock on to get behind it, & then do it all over again & again & again until you are where you want to be.

I hate to say this KC, but you've become really boring since you left the Sunshine Band.

I have no idea what you two are talking about, I'm just glad you seem to be enjoying yourselves.

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If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

The minimum standards for a B + E test as laid by the DSA is

Test vehicle for a car test and car and trailer test
Category B (See Notes 1 + 2)
Cars or vans presented for test must be

Category B + E - Car and trailer test (See Notes 3 + 4)
Cars / vans presented for test must be a Category B vehicle towing a suitably braked trailer of at least 1tonne Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) . The examiner may ask for evidence of the trailer MAM, e.g.manufacturers plate.


B + E in the case of a vehicle first used on or after the 1 October 2003 the following additional standards will apply:
the cargo compartment of the trailer must consist of a closed box body which is at least as wide and as high as the tractor vehicle; the closed box body may also be slightly less wide than the tractor vehicle provided that the view to the rear is only possible by use of the external rear-view mirrors of the tractor vehicle.


Notes:
all vehicles and trailers presented for test must be unladen.
all vehicle combinations must operate on appropriate brakes and utilise a coupling arrangement suitable for the weight.

So according to the DSA the car must conform to a test standard for that class & the trailer must be over 1 ton.
One of the problems is that most of the people training & assessing drivers in anything under 7.5 tons, & cat D1, are only licenced for that class under grandfather rights & have never taken a test in anything bigger than a car themselves, it's madness you should at the very least be expected to pass a DSA driving test before you are allowed to teach, assess or examine in that class of vehicle.