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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 15:49 
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development
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Just to let you know Safer Roads are claiming they weren't enforcing the limit, but were there to encourage drivers to slow down...basically sitting there even though they couldn't do anything even if there was a speeding driver. Seems a tad odd to me but hey ho.

Just wondered if you wanted to tweak your quote with this new knowledge at all?

Quote:
My quotes
"The law requires all signing to comply with the "The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002"
Many signs need installing, some replacing, moving & lighting to comply with the law. It would be nice to see some progress on rectifying these faults"

"It would also be nice to see the result of the speed signs audit published on the safety camera partnerships broken website to restore public confidence"

"At this time of year resourses would be better placed trying to reduce drink driving and encouraging pedestrians and cyclists to wear brighter clothing"


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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 16:00 
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Surely they wouldn't be out there gathering evidence just in case they were able to get the verdict overturned? :roll: It would be one way of protecting their cashflow for the period.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 22:34 
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http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/travel-late ... 3640206.jp

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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 Post subject: Hampshire Speed Limits
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 14:27 
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Why is this CO of Hampshire police allowed to carry on with these prosecutions when since October a Judge dismissed the 14 cases of speeding due to signs not complying with the law :?: :?: :?:

Does he think he is ABOVE the judiciary of this country and has the right to enforce the law EVEN IF IT HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVED TO BE ILLEGAL :?: :?: :?:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 15:15 
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They will get away with it unless funding appears by Friday!

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New Court 1 Barnes Wallis Road
Segensworth Fareham Hampshire PO15 5UA
DX 132290 Fareham 5
DDI: + 44 (0) 01489555277
T: + 44 (0) 1489 579990
F: + 44 (0) 01489581106
E: barry.culshaw@bllaw.co.uk
www.bllaw.co.uk

Our Ref:
4 January 2008 Your Ref:



Re: A27 Fixed Penalties

I am writing to you as one of a number of motorists who have been in contact with this office on the issue of fixed penalties imposed for alleged speeding offences on the A27 following the Judgments of District Judge Gillibrand delivered at Portsmouth Magistrates Court on 8 & 11 October 2007 respectively. In my view the Judgments of District Judge Gillibrand have relevance to all fixed penalties imposed in recent years at four camera enforcement sites at A27 Cams Hill, Fareham; A27 Eastern Way, Fareham; A27 Western Way, Fareham and A27 Southampton Road, Titchfield. The Judgments would only have relevance to those motorists alleged to have contravened the 40 mph speed limits at these four enforcement sites.

In all some 31 motorists have lodged questionnaires or otherwise made enquiries of this office on this issue. I have received instructions from twelve motorists with regard to the making of representations to the Safer Roads Partnership in regard to the Partnership's decision not to refund fixed penalties and not to make arrangements for the removal of relevant endorsements. This decision appears to have been based upon advice received from the Crown Prosecution Service and there would appear to be three basic considerations which led to the decision:-

1. The decisions of District Judge Gillibrand applied only to those individual cases on the basis of the evidence that he heard.

2. Legislation required the Partnership to give adequate guidance to motorists of the speed limit. Anyone caught speeding on the A27 would have passed at least two speed limit signs before their speed was checked.

3. The Partnership claim to have acted in the interests of road safety.

Over the past weeks I have been engaged in correspondence with the Safer Roads Partnership. In my view the decision of the Partnership is based upon fundamental errors in law, is unreasonable and that at arriving at the decision irrelevant issues were taken into account and relevant issued disregarded. The thrust of my representations have been along the following lines:-

1. Although it is correct to say that the Judgments of the District Judge bind only those individual cases with which he was dealing and although the Judgments do not constitute a precedent binding any other court the reality of the position is that the Judgments must be of persuasive value to a court determining an allegation of speeding on the A27 which concerns any of the four enforcement sites. The signing in question has effectively remained unchanged over a number of years and still, as far as I am aware, remains in its flawed state to date. The District Judge felt constrained by the provisions of Section 85(4) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to the effect that he was prohibited from convicting any motorist for contravening the speed limits as adequate guidance was not given to motorists of the 40 mph speed limits. Evidence was heard by the court throughout the week in October to the effect that the signing regimes at the four enforcement sites had been largely unaltered and, in any event, any change failed to address the flaws in the terminal signing. If it was considered that the District Judge was wrong in law then it was incumbent upon the Crown Prosecution Service to appeal against the Judgments by way of case stated to the High Court. The Crown failed to challenge the Judgments in that way.

2. The decision of the Partnership appeared to suggest that adequate guidance was given to motorists of the applicable speed limits. That observation, of course, runs completely contrary to the Judgments of District Judge Gillibrand. The reference to motorists having passed "at least two speed limit signs before their speed was checked" is a far too simplistic an observation and has no basis in law. The problem with all four enforcement sites is that motorists can gain access to the heart of the enforcement sites without passing at certain junctions any compliant terminal signing. The fact that motorists may have passed at least two repeater signs before the speed check is completely irrelevant. It has to be the law that the signing of a speed limit cannot be rendered lawful by repeater signing where there is not in place initial signing at the commencement of the speed limit.

3. Road safety is not a relevant factor in arriving at the decision and my representations were given even greater force by the fact that it would appear that the Chief Constable suspended enforcement in the area which, of course, implies a perceived problem. Comments have been made by the Safety Camera Partnership to the local press to the effect that enforcement was suspended pending an audit of signs. Assuming, therefore, that there is an ongoing audit of the signing regimes at the enforcement sites I cannot begin to understand how the Safer Roads Partnership can make a reasoned decision to refuse to refund fixed penalties and / or remove endorsements. Indeed, the entrenched position seems to have been adopted based upon monetary considerations and not on the interests of justice.

My correspondence with the Safer Roads Partnership has established that the decision to refuse to rescind fixed penalties and to remove endorsements was made on 15 October 2007. Despite two indications on behalf of the Safer Roads Partnership that my representations would meet with a response from the Constabulary's legal department no such meaningful response has been forthcoming. I have made it clear to the Safer Roads Partnership that I consider the decision to be capable of Judicial Review on application to the High Court. I have today received a letter from the legal department of the Hampshire Constabulary to the effect that they are not prepared to make any comments with regard to my correspondence or the points raised in the correspondence whilst there is a "threat" of judicial proceedings taking place. Accordingly, I would appear to have reached an impasse in my dealings with the Safer Roads Partnership.

The time for making an application to the High Court for a Judicial Review of the decision is running as of 15 October 2007. It follows from this that if any application is to be made for a Judicial Review such application will need to be lodged with the High Court prior to 15 January 2008. Although the High Court does have the power to extend the three month time limit there would have to be exceptional reason for so doing and to avoid the application being time barred it is vital to ensure that the application is lodged within that time scale.

Four of our clients have expressed a preparedness to fund the costs of the litigation but are not prepared to proceed without a much greater support in terms of contribution to costs from the motoring public affected by this situation. Julian Dobson of the litigation department of this office will be dealing with the litigation if we are instructed to take proceedings against the Safer Road Partnership. The estimate at this stage of the costs of Judicial Review proceedings is in the region of £20,000 to £25,000 plus VAT inclusive of Counsel's fees and disbursements. The initial costs of seeking Counsel's advice and initiating the proceedings are estimated in the region of £5,000 plus VAT. If the case is lost the successful party will no doubt seek an order for costs to be payable by the unsuccessful party. Accordingly, the costs for both sides are likely to be in the region of £40,000 to £50,000 plus VAT inclusive of Counsel's fees and disbursements. Any motorists participating in the litigation will be exposed to an application for an order for costs against him / her the liability for which will be joint and several and in event that the High Court finds in favour of the Safer Roads Partnership.

Public funding (legal aid) for Judicial Review proceedings is available from legal professionals and advice agencies which have contracts with the Legal Services Commission as part of the Community Legal Service.

Further information of the type(s) of help available and the criteria for receiving that help may be found in the Legal Services Manual volume III (The Funding Code). This may be found on the Legal Services Commission website at www.legalservices.gov.uk . A list of contracted firms and advice agencies may be found on the Community Legal Services website at www.justask.org.uk

This firm does not conduct publicly funded work in this field and if this firm is to conduct the proceedings it will be necessary for arrangements to be put in place for the legal fees to be discharged on a private fee paying basis. Funding will have to be in place at the latest by noon on Friday 11 January 2008 otherwise it will be impossible to comply with the three month time limit for issuing the proceedings.

You may wish to check whether or not you have in place legal expenses insurance which could be utilised to fund the litigation.

In certain circumstances, this firm will offer a Conditional Fee Agreement (CFA) sometimes referred to as a "no win no fee" case. However:-

1. This would only be considered by us after we have received an advice by Counsel that there were very good prospects of success.

2. If we were to receive this advice, we would not in practical terms be in a position to complete the necessary paperwork / obtain the necessary consent until well after the time that proceedings need to have been issued and served.

3. A CFA will only cover our costs. It will not protect you from the risk of the case being lost and having to pay the other sides costs. Insurance can be taken out to cover that eventuality but the premium will (typically) be 40% of those likely costs.

4. If after we have issued and served proceedings, and decided that the case does not at this stage justify a CFA, it may be difficult to withdraw from the proceedings without paying at least some costs for the other side (although this should be fairly nominal if it is done early).

If you are interested in contributing to the funding of this litigation could you please contact Julian Dobson at this office as a matter of urgency. This will enable Mr Dobson to gauge the level of interest in becoming involved in civil litigation and will also enable him to budget as to how much each motorist ought to be expected to contribute to the fighting fund.

If you have any queries arising out of this letter please could you liaise direct with Mr Dobson. I wish to emphasise that this letter is directed only to those motorists concerned in regard to fixed penalties. The procedural position is very different in regard to those motorists who faced court proceedings and in that regard I am retaining conduct of any enquiries from motorists in respect of convictions arising out of court proceedings.

Yours sincerely

Barry Culshaw


_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 18:39 
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Justice for those that can afford it then? :(

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 20:52 
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i wish i could afford to do it!!!

also i cant be considered for this as i havent been 'coonvicted' yet (any day though)


I wish i could afford barrys fees to go to court for my pending prosecution, but alas no can do.

I am thinking of seeing if a summons is forthcoming though, and seeing what the scameraship do!!

Good luck to everyone that goes for it!!! If i dont get prosecuted i will be more than willing to throw £200 into the fighting fund but thats all i can afford!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 16:12 
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Hi Anton

any news from the court case today?

Didnt know if you attended, but desperate to see how the new cases turned out


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 00:13 
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Bad news.
the judicial review for those who paid fixed penalties folded as thee were too few prepared to pay in.

then, in court:

Conclusion to this case took it final twist today on Portsmouth magistrates court room 2.

Barry culshaw requested an appeal under section 142 of the magistrates act for those who pleaded guilty in court or where found guilty by court.

He heard how this was the process used in the
Starrcross case heard in Torquay
& a35 Weymouth case heard in Dorset
& Folly Bottom heard in Wiltshire
but the crown in Hampshire objected Quoting rule 136 of the criminal procedure rules.

The crown still dispute the envolope argument but did not appeal because of other signing issues

The district judge still upholds the envolope argument

The judge decided that although none of the cases were represented they had 9 months toprepare thier case and did not appeal so an out of time appeal would not be allowed.

It is a bizzar judgement, and closes all options of appeal unless any one comes up with £50,000 by the end of today

We feel he has been got at by the CPS to stop the refunds.

Apart from 1 case, Mr Guppy all cases are done dusted and dead. 12 people got justice Thousands got done over.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:26, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 00:24 
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That's the way the legal system works.
Justice for those who can afford it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 09:59 
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well this has thrown my case into turmoil!!!!

I think im gonna accept the points and fine and move on???

any advice on what you think would be best?

I have a couple of days left to accept the COFP, but i know mine is gonna time out on march 26th ish, should i take the risk?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:35 
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You are posting too much info in an open forum, but yes I'd allow it to time out and take the risk. You'll get costs and a means tested fine if it goes to court. I don't see why this bad news affects you if you have not yet been convicted.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:16 
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diy wrote:
You are posting too much info in an open forum, but yes I'd allow it to time out and take the risk. You'll get costs and a means tested fine if it goes to court. I don't see why this bad news affects you if you have not yet been convicted.


do you know roughly what the costs and means tested fine will be?

I cannot afford a lot at all!!!!

The reason i say its bad news is i was hoping to get more evidence from these court cases to back up my case, but with these ones not exactly going easy i am a bit worried!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:44 
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I would also allow it to time out and await a summons.
If it arrived, baring in mind that the nip is for the wrong street.
If the summons was also for the wrong street...

Yesterday it was admitted the reason (out side proceedings) they did not appeal some cases was because the summons was for an invalid street/traffic order.

I return to the point they cannot issue the correct paper work with the summons stating that all the signing was in order.... It is a matter of public record,


You would still have the option of pleading guilty at the first opportunity (fpn does not count in any way)

It will be interested to see how mr guppy gets on. I do not have his court dates as I had to leave court and it was adjourned for an hour(i had spent 4 hours there) I might get the times of the next hearing another way.

As an a-side there was a tall chap in a pork pie hat and trench coat 40's on charges of stealing a sat nav, who claimed he had picked it up in error thinking it was his mobile. The judge asked the prosecution if it was his friends car, no he just got in with his girl friend and demanded a lift! Then she rifled the glove box and nicked it. A number of people in the court knew of him and that was "normal"" behavior. Apparently me and the judge were the only people who did not know of his antics. Moral of the story, If you are driving through Portsmouth, LOCK YOUR DOORS!

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:54 
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thanks anton

I have a couple of questions. If I do nothing and wait the arrival of the summons, IF I wanted to fight it, what would I need for court proceedings.

Obviously its not enough for me just to turn up and say well I was actually on the M27 spur road not the A27 as you alleged. How do I prove it etc... Will I need to find an expert to clarify this for me in court? If i did where would i get one of these experts from lol!!

Would you suggest I could defend myself on this instance? I really cant afford a solictors fees if I have to pay upfront with no guarentee of getting my full costs back.

I just am clueless about teh next step, which is obviously making me nervous, but also I dont want to let the buggers get me when it is an illegal prosecution


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 14:31 
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You need the traffic orders, I have them but they are faint. It would be better to request a better set,

You can defend yourself. The risk is they may decide to ignore the law and allow the error as a slip error and you are at risk of a fine of say £200 + £300 costs?

I think we need to see what the summons says.... as I said If it arrives

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 22:34 
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hi anton

a few more questions :oops:

how do i get a copy of teh traffic orders? Do I write to the police or council, also is it a request under the FOI act?

Also i could not afford a fine of 2-300 + costs, i really cant!!!! IF i get a summons could i pled guilty then? if I do what would the fine be?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am reallys eriously thinking of giving up!! I just cant afford to take the risk of a bigger fine!! The max i could afford would be about £120 and that would be pushing it.

Like aonther poster has said justice for the rich!! But not for people who just cant afford the risk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 23:24 
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Press coverahe of friday

echo http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/search/displ ... _cases.php

the news
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/latest/Driv ... 3666614.jp

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 01:00 
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ohgreat wrote:
hi anton

a few more questions :oops:

how do i get a copy of teh traffic orders? Do I write to the police or council, also is it a request under the FOI act?

Also i could not afford a fine of 2-300 + costs, i really cant!!!! IF i get a summons could i pled guilty then? if I do what would the fine be?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am reallys eriously thinking of giving up!! I just cant afford to take the risk of a bigger fine!! The max i could afford would be about £120 and that would be pushing it.

Like aonther poster has said justice for the rich!! But not for people who just cant afford the risk


If you still have a case open then you should be fine - this ruling is only over previous cases, where the defendants were wanting to reopen the cases which had already been decided.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 13:34 
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right i have had a reply to a letter i sent in december today and to be honest i dont know if i can take the stress and financial worry of getting a bigger fine!!!

this is the letter i sent

Quote:
I am writing in regards to the above Notice on Intended Prosecution and the Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty letter that was received by me today.

I wrote a letter on the ??? that you have yet responded to, please find another copy enclosed.

I believe that the intended prosecution in invalid and legally flawed to the reasons stated on the letter enclosed.

You have just sent a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty without responding to any of my concerns on this intended prosecution.

The advice I have been given stated that any prosecution would fail for a number of reasons these being
• I was travelling along the M27 spur NOT the A27 Eastern Way as stated on the Notice of Intended Prosecution.
• The terminal signs have been proven to be incorrect which is fatal to a prosecution. This was proven at Portsmouth Magistrates Court in the case of R v Thomas on Thursday 11 October 2007.
• The initial speed limit order was on the old A27 on its old route from Cams Hill through Delme roundabout to Titchfield. It did not cover the flyover over the Delme roundabout.

I look forward to receiving a full response and answers to the points I have raised in this letter. I am sure the Partnership does not want to waste taxpayer’s money on a flawed prosecution. Surely you can’t justify a flawed prosecution when you have suspended all prosecutions along this stretch of road on the back of the court cases in October?
Yours sincerely



i have just this morning received this

Image









my feeling is they know i am going to possibly fight it, so they will make damn sure it wont time out, you know what they are like!!!

If someone could help me out i would really appreciate it!! I am just terrified of going to court, but also angry that they will get away with an illegal prosecution if i cave!!


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