Safe Speed Forums

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7108365.stm


SIX up in a Mini, at 100 mph!!

Is it not beyond the genius of man to fit sensors which warn when the weight/load is liable to affect handling?
And why did the passengers not think 100 mph was too fast with 6 up?

A clear case however of a speed camera being of no use whatsoever.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

It was overloaded just because it only had 4 or 5 seat belts.


At 100mph I imagine the braking might not respond quite as well with all that weight.

The weight loading is easily bust with three 16 stone pasengers.
A mini cooper S weighs 1205 kg
max weight 1505 allowing 300kg load
6.35kk=1 stone
maximum load = 47 stone= 4 X 11.5 stone people

or 6 X 7.8 stone weaklings

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Such a sensor is fitted as standard to all cars, unfortunately this sensor is a common failure item.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Don't tell me... It's the nut that holds the wheel...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Sooner or later, one of these young men is going to sue the state for not providing the skills and information required to stay out of these sorts of trouble.

We're letting them down so badly...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

A man who gets my bad puns - I knew I liked you for a reason.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

The thought of 100 mph in a Mini is scary even with just one or two on board.

In an original one maybe but the BMW version is a pretty big and heavy car with modern brakes and suspension etc.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7109315.stm



It's worth noting that the deceased was older than the driver, and they had only just met.
In most cases, the occupants are regular companions, and the passengers allow themselves to be driven in a manner which invites trouble - some might recall the YouTube links I have posted previously.

As observed in earlier posts, ALL the occupants must be aware of the danger they place themselves in, not just the driver. The only way that young people will stop driving dangerously, is to train them better, and if necessary provide an outlet for the misplaced enthusiasm for dangerous driving on the road.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Indeed, I was surprised a few weeks back when I parked next to one in my old "Hang Over" to find that the new mini has a "Footprint" that was almost as large (the late model VW golfs *are* as large, only my tow bar makes mine longer)

So much for "Huge 4X4's hogging the roadspace!"

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Read somewhere that the new Mini ( or as some think of it -not a Mini) is a bit more like the Maxi that BMC made in size .
Comparisons of both --Mini -front end 1603 mm wide, Maxi -1651 and length -3699 vs 4032 --so not so far away .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

This was on "my patch". The "News & Star" had a piece on it this evening too. If the reports are to be believed, it took place on a stretch of NSL single carriageway that USED to be the A66 before it was bypassed near Great Clifton. Having driven that stretch many times myself, I'm surprised any car could actually REACH 100 on it before falling off! The paper said they'd been doing 130 just before the incident although that MIGHT have been possible on the straight, down-hill section that forms the new bypass. It also mentioned that the driver was drugged-up on cocaine as well as drunk and that all the occupants were thrown from the car - although I'm not sure about that.

I expect there will be calls to make it a 40 limit now (because clearly he wouldn't have been doing 130 if it had been a 40 limit rather than a 60 ) and I expect that there will be calls for some scameras to be erected too...

With regard to over-loading, it always surprises me just how little load carrying capacity most modern cars have. The manufacturers seem to work on the minimum 75kg per occupant and leave very little extra for additional luggage. Naturally, even with the 6 people in it, the car might not have been beyond it's maximum carrying capacity (for weight, at least) - one of the occupants was a 14 year old girl. It's brakes are likely to have been able to meet the EC MINIMUM requirements at more weight than that as it (presumably) has the capacity to also tow an unbraked trailer up to 500kg. Obviously, handling WOULD be different under those conditions but the driver was likely to have been both inexperienced and also not in a fit state to pick up on any "clues" it might have been trying to give him prior to the incident!

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the "playstation generation" ought to be put in a high quality driving simulator periodically(a proper one that moves like a flight simulator) and told to take it for a drive - as fast as they like. The instructor should then throw in a variety of hazards (pedestrian stepping out, patch of diesel / ice, puncture, tractor round a bend etc) to show them how they're not qute as good as they like to think they are. Lecturing will do little good (and neither would cameras or other "enforcement" deterrents because it "wouldn't ever happen to them") but I think being shown up in front of their mates at something that they THOUGHT they were good at just might. Of course these simulators would be very expensive but I'd have thought they could maybe find a few quid from the camera fines...

I have always felt this to be a good idea.

But

The sim *must* be dynamic so that the "Driver" has the feel of a moving vechicle.

"Gut feel" is an important part of driving a car and a "static" sim would just be a vidio game.

As for the expence, Thats all down to mass production. If the use of sims became widespread then they could be produced in large numbers and the price would fall dramatically. In any case, a full dynamic driving sim would be far simpler than a flying one!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

I think the weight load is an issue. My small MPV has 5 seats and a weight capacity of 450kg that is 70 stone.

One lunchtime we nipped out for a buissiness lunch and 5 burley peope jumped in. It handled awfully.

My estimate of my colleages is 78 stone! And thats before you add 50kg of fuel.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

firstly i'm not clear if it was driver + 4 (possible in most cars, not sure about the new mini as ive only driven one once and a most unpleasant experience it was too!).... or driver + 5.

secondly i'm not entirely sure he'd have got away with it on his own, so blaming it entirely on overloading seems a little hopeful..... inappropriate speed must have played an BIG part here!

and finally... moving table simulators are inpractically expensive and still have their limitations in terms of realism. overheads and availability of private tracks are surely much less and much more practical!

[aside]
i recall being in the thrust ssc simulator in the transport museum in coventry (highly recomended btw) and being told this is what 5g braking felt like... and thinking well the best they could do in this is 1g by pointing me straight up... and i know it doesnt do that
[/aside]

actually i just remembered a similar incident i had as a new driver in my mums polo..... tearing down a straight nsl to a roundabout which i've done several times before, braking about the same point as usual only to find with 3 extra people in took alot more effort and momentarily locked the front wheels (no ABS).
fortunately scrubbed enough speed off and bought enough time to nip onto the roundabout behind a car safely.

but then i dont think you can really learn that kind of lesson from a book.

hi, I would agree you can't blame overloading, the guy sounds like a terrible driver (one report says he was on cocaine & drunk) - I'm sure excessive speed would come into it. But the guy on here who knows the road says he think it would be hard to reach 100mph without an overloaded car - which begs the question how did they work out how fast the guy was travelling? Is it not likely to be sensationalism in order to bring the fact he was travelling fast to the forefront, rather than actually giving us a realistic estimate - which is what it would be anyway, no one who was in the car could accurately tell us due to the fact they likely don't remember much about it! - it would be a scientific estimate, based on skid marks/impact on the car bodywork etc, only it would be taken as fact and presented as fact to further the cause for reduced speed limits and speed cameras.

It's a tragic case, but this is down to someone being an awful driver overall by the sounds of it - I am glad to see the father of the deceased made a point of mentioning "condition, manner AND speed" of the driver

Yeah, I was wondering how they estimated that speed. It did say "prior to" the accident, and there is a straight stretch of A66 where you MIGHT be able to get up to a 'ton 30. I am always reminded of the newspapers after the Diana crash stating that the Mercedes was doing (I dunno), 120MPH on impact because that's what the speedo needle was stuck on after the crash. It turned out to be nothing like that sort of speed...

I agree they're expensive. I had a mate who wrked for Redifusion many years ago making flight simulators and they were damned expensive - but more realistic than I thought they'd be. I'm not sure a plane one would be any more difficult than a car one though, planes can't really generate "cornering" loads sideways becuase they bank - they're more like bikes in that respect.

I think the big problem with taking them out on a track is that it might well have the OPPOSITE effect. I think a lot of these "yoofs" actually have pretty good car control but lousy observation and anticipation skills. The idea of the simulator would be to chuck in a load of unforseen events like kids running out from in between parked cars - which would be tricky on a track! As for the financing of it, well, we'd need several up and down the country but people nabbed for speeding pay fines that would help with the costs, government has road safety budgets which could also help and people who are offered the "speed awareness courses" could be trained on these things paying a realistic contribution towards the time spent on the sim.

Well here's a trick:

Now Cumbria had a good few fatal accidents due to YOUNG drivers loss of control incidents last year - and at £1.2 million a pop, the cost of a dercent simulator seems a small price to pay.... unless they are fibbing over the cost of fatal accidents.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!