Safe Speed Forums

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 163492.ece

On the radio this morning, CC Steve Green was saying he wanted the law changed so that the mere presence of illegal drugs in the system would be sufficient to convict someone of drug-driving, without any need to demonstrate impairment. However, that doesn't seem to be reflected in the press reports.

As we have discussed before, that could cause problems with regard to cannabis, traces of which can linger in the system for a fortnight or more.

Edit: That point is made in this report in the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0 ... 21,00.html

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

My wife has a cannabis spray as a prescribed medicine. How would the test distinguish the prescribed drug from the street drug?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Also the "field imparement test" where do I stand in law if I refuse this public humilating test? I am bound to fail! I can't walk a streight while line in a month of sundays. Where is the scientifc approval fior this test?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

I believe that it's just supposed to be an indication of impairment. If you fail/refuse then they arrest you. But then at the station they have to get an FME to test you more thoroughly for impairment (not sure how) and also do blood tests. So in your case you may well be arrested but nothing more ought to happen. Still not really fair though since you're completely innocent.

As for your wife, am I right in thinking that she's taking Sativex? AFAIK that's not yet generally licensed here and she must had needed special permission, so I doubt anyone up there's thought about your point. But I suppose in a way it's irrelevant whether you've taken an illegal drug or a prescription one; either you're impaired or you're not. If they were to start making distinctions between illegal and prescription drugs then it would expose a different agenda.

ISTR that some of the more overzealous states in the US now have very harsh laws on how much of each drug is allowed in your blood, resulting in the problem with cannabis that Peter describes. Of course the officials know perfectly well that someone who had it a couple of days ago is not going to be impaired, but they'll find any excuse to get cannabis users into as much trouble as possible, with no regard whatsoever for proportionality. One of the many unfortunate consequences of the rabid "war on cannabis" IMHO. As with the speeding zealots, "Think of the children" is trotted out whenever anyone argues with them. I think the DEA are far more unreasonable, damaging and self-serving than any quango here, and that's saying a lot.

This is quite interesting; I do not take drugs prescription or other. I do not like the fact the police don’t have to prove your driving is impaired if new laws are passed. If I remember correctly they also want it to cover prescription drugs (I may have heard wrong). Even if its just illegal drugs, I can see many problems: I believe asthma inhalers use steroids. Many perfectly legal prescribed drugs are derivatives or in the same “family” as illegal drugs. Morphine/codeine/heroin (opium alkaloids) spring to mind Morphine Plus a methyl group (CH3) you get Codeine, Morphine add two a Carbonyl groups(Aldehyde) (CH3COH) you get Heroin. I assume as they have similar shapes they both probably fit into the same receptor, would an on the road drug test pick up the difference? I don’t know how long these drugs stay in your system, what if you have undergone a operation, and you still have morphine in your system.

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

The reports certainly said that the proposals would cover legal prescription drugs as well. They would have a "traffic light" system, and it would be an offence to drive after taking a drug with a "red light".

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

It is impossible to tell whether someone's taken morphine or heroin. Heroin itself has no effect on the body whatsoever; it is turned into morphine once it has been introduced (I believe it's about four times as strong, but there's still no way of telling the difference).

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

This is so open to abuse. For example, all it would take is someone disgruntled to find out where the victim works, or break into their house, and add some 'sparkle' to their tea, then tip-off the authorities. It could happen to anyone, even The Acpo spokesman.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Agreed, but what do you expect from Mad Med? The only reason he doesn't cop a lot more flak is that Brunstrom is even worse. I wonder what it is about being in charge of roads which seems to attract such utter cretins.

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Where did you get this from, it's not that I don't belive you, I know bugger all about drugs in the body (I have a degree in chemistry not pharmacy, although some people think they are the same thing ), but I can work out how to make them . Anyway what you say confuses me If heroin is turned in to morphine why is it 4X stronger? I assume it is related to the Carbonyl groups?

Help anybody?

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Heroin is turned into morphine ?
Heroin is di-acetyl-morphine.
The white crystalline form is commonly the hydrochloride salt diacetylmorphine hydrochloride. Upon crossing the blood-brain barrier, which occurs soon after introduction of the drug into the bloodstream, heroin mimics the action of endorphins, creating a sense of well-being; the characteristic euphoria has been aptly described as an "orgasm" centered in the gut.

I don't know where I saw it in the first place, but this page describes the process. It's just one of the many trivial irrelevant facts which clog up my mind.

I know essentially nothing about chemistry, in or out of the body. But I definitely recall reading in a trusted source that you can't tell chemically whether someone's consumed morphine or heroin, and that heroin is effectively a "wrapper drug" (there's a proper term for that which eludes me). That's not to say that the psychoactive effect of heroin is the same as morphine (as jomukuk points out), it's just that in the end, things in the body are chemically the same whichever drug is introduced (at least I think so!)

As I say though, "IANAC" and I would encourage anyone who's interested to do their own research.

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

To make things more difficult - codeine, an opiate - present in many over the counter preparations is converted by the body to morphine too.

Morpine is also present in small amounts in "collis brown mixture", available without prescription from a pharmacy to relieve diarrhoea and coughs.

In such small amounts these drugs are unlikely to cause impariment, but would still lead to a positive drug test.

Don't forget the old fashioned tummy remedy, Kaolin and Morphine. You can still get it.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Do not worry. The amount ist very tiny. You would have to take hugest quantity for this to register in blood stream. Your body expletes these tiny amounts fairly quickly as part of normal body processes.

It when the person inject, take a deliberate dose straight into system - which affect brain. That ist big give away from eye focus as to level of impairment. It fairly easy to tell from state of eye pupil if taking huger amounts of opiate.

As for prescription drug - if it say on label "Do Not Operate Machinery" - you need to ask questions as to how this would affect your ability to drive a car.

If drug make you drowsy or sicky feeling - then don't drive at least until this wear off. Medicine will still be working on bit of body which need the TLC in between doseage - but the side -effect wear off after 40 minutes to an hour. If you are unlucky - have longer term "reaction" - then you are your manager who need to take the managerial executive decision of having a


.... duvet day

I could go on a great length - but there are so many medicines - all of which have side effects of some sort. Most over counters are harmless enough if taken per the label instruction - do not impair. But some are quite potent. Your doctor/pharmacist would /should advise you.l If in doubt - don't drive.

Drugs are not "leisure substances" in any case. They do affect the body und mind - with tragic results.

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Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
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Je ne regrette rien!

Yes, but certain drug tests have a very high sensitivity and these 'tiny' amounts would register a positive result.

As there is no 'morphine drive limit', any positive result, regardless of how small the amount detected is, will 'look bad' and may result in a drug-drive conviction. Especially if the suspect has smaller than normal pupils, is in bright sunlight or is no good at standing on his/her leg with his eyes closed.

I have to provide better evidence than small pupils and a failure to hop in a straight line with a finger on the tip of the nose!


It's like the roadside breathalyser: the initial reading (or in the case of the "drug test" (note the " " :wink) the failure to exhibit cognitive or bodily motor skills as required to handle a car safely) gives us "reason to suspect" and we then take our suspect to the station for more specimens and if required - involve the police doctor. What we want in the case of drugs - is some authority to test more thoroughly once at the station.

We all react differently anyway to alcohol and drugs. It should be how dangerous the driver was to others on the road as opposed to a loose figure under which some with a particualr "idiosyncrasy" are still a liability on the road

But these people need to know how much a danger they are and perhaps we need the law to take account of this more appropriately and fairly if we are to serve justice properly
:

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

That’s the way it used to be, and because of that the police earned more respect. The trouble nowadays is we're not allowed ot use our own judgement any longer and there’s no leeway, we’re all instant criminals.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Some things that make me wary of this: the shambles of the A,B,C system with illegal drugs, the shambles with warnings on peanut content, and the shambles with the traffic light system on 'junk food'.

We try to police that way here still. I am also wary of taking DNA swabs (as allegedly advocated in the WailY") for very trivial offences. Imagine the outrage if wwe took DNA from pavement cyclists

I think such a database would be unwieldy and I should put this on the thread concerned

Authority to enforce the laws has to be reasonable or else eventually you can end up with the anarchy you were trying to prevent in the first place For years we had a justice system held to be the most reputable in teh modern world. Some people appear to be destroying this good name because of some pee cee or nightmare ideology

It does not work. Tried, tested and true works and we always end up going back to how Grandad did things when we talk of "common sense values:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.