Safe Speed Forums

I will never dehumanise anyone.. not even those I have cause to arrest for good reason either. Justice depends on cool objectivity after all .. and I learned that lesson after some subjective mistakes on my part following the black hole which engulfed the Swiss family whom I like and respect.

Problem is that little advice is given on the effects/symtoms of reaching that stage - where your head neads more shaking to keep alert /you need to open the window a bit more and miles pass with no recollection. Employers go on glibly on the advantages of travelling outside the "dangerous hours" ,yet how many give out the simptoms -i've done it -as i'm certain many others have, like(possibly) BIB on night patrol ---only trouble is that it's only recognisable once you've done it a few times, and been lucky to escape with you're life.

It is an implied term of every contract of employment that the employer will fulfill his duty of care to employees. Properly constituted and meaningful consultation should examine custom and practice where employer's changes and impositions occur which are likely to affect conditions of employment and the dignity at work and personal well-being of employees.

Health, Safety and Welfare at Work etc. Act 1974
Section 2 of the Act places a duty upon all employers to ensure the health (including mental health), safety and welfare of all employees and to create safe and healthy working systems. RIDDOR 95 - (Reporting of Injuries, Diseases or Dangerous Occurrences Regulations). Under RIDDOR, employees have the right to report all incidents of a danger to them, including bullying and harassment. Employers are legally obliged to have reporting procedures in place. Industrial Injury form BI95 available from Department of Work & Pensions should also be completed

Negligence and Liability
Employers must provide a safe place of work, a safe system of work, safe plant and appliances and safe and competent fellow workers. If an employer fails to take reasonable care to protect an employee from a foreseeable injury by failing to provide any of the above, he or she could be found to have breached the 'duty of care'. Redress would either be via Civil or Criminal law.

To the lurks - we appreciate you are upset by this incident ... but hang wringing and bad-mouthing 32 million other people who manage to drive very safely 95% of the time is not going to do much to bring the 5% of rogues into line.

....(followed by loads of useful information on sleep)

On one particular drive I was sure I would fall asleep if I continued to drive on the speed limit so I bumped my speed up by about 15mph (from 60mph).

I figured the risk of being booked was worth it to be able to drive safely".

Equally important in all this is the part your employer pays in authorising holidays, can you get the extra day you really need to able to get back and then have a relaxed drive home?

Now I don't suppose for one minute that this is the message they WANT to put across and don't worry, I'm not about to try it but having often had to drive when tired and having often used a mobile at the wheel (all in the past you understand!), I am really starting to wonder what al lthe fuss is about!

I have fallen asleep at the wheel once....and I completely agree with whoever said it wasn't always that easy to see coming....with a "Flock of Seagulls" album blasting out (ironically, to keep me awake)! ....I had drifted on to the hard shoulder and would have only been a few seconds off going onto the grass had she not woken me up!

I agree with other posters that there needs to be a lot more information on how deceptive sleepiness can be. It happened to me and took me completely by surprise.....I had also taken a small phenergan tablet for sinus problems.....

I was starting to feel a little bit tired and blinked a couple of times, but I wasn't far from my destination and didn't think much of it...Then I blinked again and hit the car in front as it stopped yet again. I had been effectively asleep for probably 5 seconds. I had no idea I was at risk of that happening. There was no real warning at all. It felt just like a normal momentary blink.

He certainly did not intend to harm Zak Carr.. let's be clear about this..

...he will suffer just as much as the bereaved family for the rest of his life.... and to the cycling contingent who lurk.. I would ask them to bear in mind that those who cause a trauma through accidental collision will hurt just as much as those directly affected by their lapse, moment of madness or whatever chance circumstances merged to cause such horror.

Good evening all, if I may a few comments to some of your posts:

This driver had 2 hours of sleep in past 24 hours. I've made several long distance flights to Austrailia & US (limited naps here and there), all that I felt when arriving at the destination was going to sleep, I would never be in a fit state to drive....yet people do. Maybe they should close the long stay car parks at the airports?




My husband. We do try to help und just try to make folk out there aware of health issues as well as COAST..

We do need police officers .. more than automation which ist really limited to a single focus policy. It achieve very little in reality.. und the claims re success have no more been "peer reviewed" than the other side of argument Und what ist a "peer review" but a review of your work by your peers in your own area of expertise . but which may conflict with the findings of another team of experts whose expertise ist in once removed relationship




Which ist why mein liebster Mann make his post.. to try to get people to at least recognise symptom of why they should think seriously about fitness to get on bicycle, motorbike or into driving seat.




This ist maybe the "boredom" fatigue .. Have you ever been working in office und just felt yawny und feel eyes drooping out of pure boredom?

I think it happen in car.. in modern cars more than in the old ones where you have to concentrate. I do find our old beauties much more of a "challenge" than our moderns who respond with some glee if I just wiggle my toes Ist why we should not und must not allow novices to drive these cars. You have to know und understand them to handle these brutes safely Und ist not the IAM so I am . It do come with experience und that ist why our kittens with driving licences have smaller cars und only drive ours under our supervision.

It does not actually happen to me in my car .or at any other time of day. I love the thrill of just being alive anyway. Und I get enough sleep .. ist all them kittens





I think he try to say that he try to manipulate the demand placed on him by working to prevent the fatigue here. There ist an onus on employer to provide duty of care und not set impossible target for drivers

He try to mitigate und compromise whilst at same time placating the boss without compromising his responsibility to drive alert und with the relaxed concentration which mean we notice what we should und must do



Indeed. Ist a skill we should take very seriously



I think these incidents do wake und shake up. Perhaps lieber Mole learn from this und take more care now. Fatigue,.. he is like .. or unmarked car.. he creep up with stealth.




I have always said to follow doctor und pharmacist und manufacturer instruction .. I would suggest timing the taking of this pill a decent time before you intend to drive .. to give side effects time to subside.




I think perhaps he was afraid to look und confront his worst fears perhaps. I can understand as when unlicenced thugs drove into my lovely car the other week und runned away .. I had to force myself to look initially at the damage to my lovely hunk of pure macho steel with the cute bum .. und now with the black eye und split lip und mega bruising He ist going to have surgery later this week. We expect fullest recovery .. he ist a lot luckier than Zak.

A car.. yes .. we can mend those. We cannot mend people as easily.

But I try to say .. he was maybe in shock.. too afraid to look...in denial of it all too.. afraid of consequences...

Ist not making excuses.. ist trying to understand the human element here.. und whatever we do in life.. we are all human beings with very real feelings und we all react differently when faced with trauma. I suspect his first feeling was one of primeval panic und desire to flee. Witness thought that for moment per the report I read in tabloid on this story.

I will try to look beyond person in dock if I can .. even though I can rant for planet at great length over pee-cee p:censored:cks who let off seriously dangerous unlicenced idiots but who apply rough justice to those who blip 4 times at 4 mph above lolly as was alleged in Blackpoo's press in 2002/3 ..




Ach.. I think they are also victims und IG und self (He my cousin by the way.. ) are - I think - qualified to say. He ist of some long lofty experience.. und my family..


We lost my beloved cousin when a lorry .. defective in every way .. careered across motorway und through central reserve und hit him head on. It was a rush hour crawl.. und speeds were around the 20/25 mph mark. Ferdl died on impact. The lorry driver later tried to kill himself out of the guilt burden... whilst his employer escape with token slap on wrist for failing to maintain his fleet of vehicles.

I also had more than chav drive into my car's wing in supermarket car park.

Just months after Ferdl die .. driver taken ill at wheel of car. He increase speed und hit my car which was in a traffic queue. This was one mega-awful incident und motorway was closed for a day at that point at the time. He also died as he went through windscreen und through my rear screen. (His belt came undone in throes of death .apparently.. )

At inquest . widow say he felt ill that morning ..would not listen to suggestion to go back to bed for hour or so... She felt guilty.. und I refused her floral gifts.. und she then try to kill herself as she blame herself for her husband's decision to drive. I forgave und we are now on friendly terms. It would have been a lot worse for us to cope with our own fight to get to normality has she also been a "victim" of this incident.

So... you see..it ist no value to have hate or revenge. It consume und prevent healing und continuing life for all involved. The courts .. tja.. they give a "closure" und sense of "justice served".. but the real healing comes with celebrating a life like Ferdl's und Zak's... und accepting that the person who cause also human being who hurt very much as result of driving defective vehicle in Ferd's case und man who fell asleep in Zak's case. In my incident.. the person died ... but his family felt the guilt und grief for him und for my family. I was Mama of three toddlers at the time und just setting off on my career to be a "toppest scientist"



Ist always denial.. He did not think he fell asleep... but he did. Or he was not looking ahead at road. Which ist worse? I do not know. But when it sink in.. he will really have sleepless night of torment..for rest of life.

Zak's family can remember him.. the good times .. the life und the love of knowing him.

It never ever take away the feeling of sadness .. the wishing the person was still there. We feel that with Ferdl und Rudi (who died in plane crash) But you remember them .. fondly .. with love.

He can only reflect at ruining their lives und his own family life.



Ist the job of defence .. to mitigate outcome. Even Saddam's lawyer tried to plead for some mercy for him.

If we do not have this..we have injustice und kangaroo courts. This does not honour Zak or Ferdl or Saddam's victims und not to allow them to plead their case would deny their justice as well.



But whilst we are ex BRAKE members und bone of contention to us.. ist the speed cam single focus issue which lead to poorer driving standards.. we Swiss signed the Day/Saunders petitions to lead to these tougher sentences for the truly dangerous.

He will probably get 10 years .. reduced for good behaviour und remorse .. und a long ban.. und punitive insurance for longest time afterwards.. which deter driving.. und ist punishment enough given guilt riden remorseful conscience will awaken big time in the future as well.

5% of rouges, I suspect that the figure of those driving while feeling unfit is much higher than this. It's not about hang wringing...etc it's about making people think and take responsibility for their actions.

Good evening all, if I may a few comments to some of your posts:

This driver had 2 hours of sleep in past 24 hours. I've made several long distance flights to Austrailia & US (limited naps here and there), all that I felt when arriving at the destination was going to sleep, I would never be in a fit state to drive....yet people do. Maybe they should close the long stay car parks at the airports?



5% of rouges, I suspect that the figure of those driving while feeling unfit is much higher than this. It's not about hang wringing...etc it's about making people think and take responsibility for their actions.

He may very well did not intend to harm....but:
..."The witness said that Pearce, said to be travelling at 60mph, did not approach Carr as he lay dying by the side of the road"

Certainly he may well regret this for the rest of his life, but to say that will suffer just as much as the bereaved family?

I really object to the implication that somehow the driver is also a victim, may I remind you that he took the choice to get behind the wheel! Also I have very little sympathy for him esspecially as he did not have the decency to admit to the charges, plead guilty and take some heat out of the ordeal for Zak's family:

Zak's father said "emotions fluctuated during the trial at which the defence attempted to cast doubt as to the driver's culpability".

So facing a sentance of upto 14 years, he is currently on bail to allow him to wind up his business affairs. Hopefully the sentance will be reasonable to make it clear that dangerous driving is unacceptable.

But what is done is done, I'm sure that the driver will no longer drive in this manner again and it may be that he classes himself as a careful driver, hence the misplaced confidence! May sound familiar to some?

For all our sakes...drive safely.

Unfortunately, it i not possible to rest for sleepiness at the roadside, as any individual will perform well in roadside tests (adrenaline is a powerful stimulant)

It is monotonous tasks which identify driver sleepiness and driving along a motorway is a prime example of one such task

\any driver is aware when he/she feels sleepy and they should act approiately by choosing notto drive a vehicle.

Your readers shoudl think long and hard about their own dirving and cycling behaviour too. How many of you have risen very early from bed, driven or ridden long journeys, ridden a tiring cycling event and then ridden home?

The risks of you falling asleep at the wheel are darmatically increased by such a schedule

[b] If you do feel sleepy - heed the tell tale signs and stop at the earliest convenience , dirnk a caffeinated drink,, try to have a short nap. That will stave off some sleepiness and maybe save not your own life .. but that of another too

Tired motorist jailed over death

Zak Carr was renowned as a solo and tandem cyclist
A sleep-deprived motorist who killed a top race cyclist after a night without sleep during a holiday flight has been jailed for five years.
Donald Pearce, 49, landlord of the Farmhouse pub on Colman Road, Norwich, hit Zak Carr on the A11 near Wymondham, in Norfolk.

Mr Carr, 30, was cycling to work when the crash happened on 17 October 2005.

Pearce had denied death by dangerous driving, but was convicted following a trial at Norwich Crown Court.

During the trial, prosecutors said Pearce may have fallen asleep at the wheel.

Sleep deprived

The court heard Pearce and his wife had been in Turkey on a fortnight's holiday and had landed at Stansted Airport early in the morning.

Pearce had not had an overnight sleep between leaving Turkey the night before, arriving at Stansted, and driving back home to Norwich, the court heard.

Pearce later told police that he did not see the cyclist until the last moment.

Mr Carr was one of the top three cyclists in the country and held national records at short and long distances.

Judge Simon Barham jailed Pearce for five years and said he hoped the case would serve as a warning to motorists who contemplate driving when deprived of sleep.

Judge Barham also banned Pearce from driving for seven years and ordered him to take an extended driving test before getting behind the wheel again.

Pearce's insurers were also ordered to pay prosecution costs of £2,210.

Nothing is going to help us come to terms with it. This sentence might make people think in future

At the point of the collision, Mr Carr was cycling in a lay-by when hit by your car. There was no reason for you to hit him and you were not travelling too fast . He had a rear light on his cycle and you had ample opportunity to see him.

No sentence I impose is adequate enough for those who have lost Mr Carr. This will serve as a warning to others. It is dangerous for those who travel home from a holiday or from a business trip to get into a car and drive home without adequate sleep