Safe Speed Forums

Be fair, don't quote me out of context. I also said "It's nothing to do with the actual car - it's more to do with the 4x4 driver attitude. In my experience, urban 4x4 drivers are very aggressive drivers"...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

You appear to be saying that I'm prejudiced. According to the dictionary, prejudice means "a preformed opinion, usually an unfavourable one, based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes".

My beliefs are based on my own experiences of life, and therefore must be accurate.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Firstly, this is most definitely not meant as a personal attack. However, you have given yourself as an example.

You define prejudice as:

• a preformed opinion
  You have preformed the opinion that 4x4 drivers are aggressive ("In my experience, urban 4x4 drivers are very aggressive drivers")
• usually an unfavourable one
  This is so in your case if you consider aggressiveness to be bad
• based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes
  I'd say spot on there. You say that 4x4 drivers are, in your experience, aggressive. Well, I'm a 4x4 driver and I'm not aggressive on the road. Most members of 4x4 clubs are also not aggressive drivers because those who are aggressive tend to wreck their cars pretty quickly at club meetings and so cease to be 4x4 drivers
  IMO your experience lacks sufficient depth to justify your claim that 4x4 drivers are typically aggressive, that is you are acting on irrational feelings founded on the inaccurate stereotype you have created.

Personally, I believe that aggression isn't related to the cars being driven but to the type of person doing the driving. I also believe that perception is a two-way thing requiring not only events and facts but interpretation of those events and facts, which can be subconciously altered to fit personal prejudice. If you fall for anti-anything hype and bigotry, you will subconciously fit facts and events into the framework of that prior opinion. This is one way propaganda works, and how some of the worst attocities in human history have come to pass.

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Will

That is a rather ignorant conceit, BB. Your experiences are limited, so there is a very real risk that you are jumping to a conclusion that is inaccurate. It may just be that you have encountered only a few 4x4 drivers in terms of overall 4x4 ownership, but every single one of them belongs to a minority who behave aggressively for other reasons that you have neither appreciated nor explored.

It is no worse than saying 'every black person I have encountered has been a criminal' if you are a criminal court judge and every black person you have met has been a defendant. It may be true, but no meaning or significance as to the wider picture can or should be derived from it.

No - my experiences of urban 4x4 drivers have created that impression on me - I didn't start out assuming they were...


Yes, bad as in bad driving


Well I'm glad to hear it! I've just not encountered you on the road yet. When I do, I may revise my opinion.


Well, I'm afraid my life experiences are the only ones that I have to go on! I regularly drive/ride in Manchester, Birmingham, London & Cardiff and this is where I experience this driving.


Are we starting to agree here? Isn't this what I've been referring to?

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Like I said in my previous post, my experiences are the only ones I've got - I can't create them from situations that I've not experienced...

It's like saying that every time I've stuck my hand in a fire, I've been burned, but because I've not stuck my hand in every fire, not every fire will burn you...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Try wearing flameproof gloves If someone was to do so once they could legitimately report that, in their experience, not every fire burns as one time they put their hand in one and didn't get burned.

Leaving out the important other factor that caused the anomoly in this case is sneaky, but doesn't make the statement untrue.

In your case you are unaware of the other factors involved because your experiences are inevitably incomplete. In other words your conclusions are not proven simply because they match your experiences.

By all means state your experiences, but do not try to derive any point of fact from them, and don't be surprised if your conclusions turn out to be rubbish - in fact accept that inevitably they probably are as you have insufficient additional evidence to prove otherwise...

Hmmm. Maybe it's because it's Friday but I don't understand you. All my experiences are in fact, complete.
Are you saying that just because I've experienced something, it didn't really happen? It was just a figment of my imagination?

What additional evidence do I need? An urban 4x4 tries to bully drivers out of their way, generally driving like a knob, which I see with my own eyes, is actually rubbish? The event never took place?

OK, I suspect I was extremely high on narcotics every time I experience these things and they didn't actually happen and that somehow I journeyed into some sort of space-time continuum...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

So, you've driven in a few cities and seen one or two bad drivers of 4x4s. I also expect you've seen and ignored lots of good drivers of 4x4s and lots of bad drivers of other types. This country is a lot, lot bigger than a few cities with interconnecting motorways and A roads. So I suspect you haven't had enough experience to make a completely informed opinion that is valid from Lands End to John O'Groats, and from Haverfordwest to Norwich.

We all have prejudices, and we all tend to bend facts to fit our preconceptions. We also weight information dependent on our interest. An example is the "new car effect". This is where you become seriously interested in purchasing a particular make/model that you hardly noticed before and suddenly they seem to be everywhere. In the same way, having formed an opinion that 4x4 drivers are aggressive you will likely notice every example of aggressive 4x4 driving but ignore most examples of courteous 4x4 driving and aggressive driving of other types.

Now, I know lots of 4x4 drivers from the West Midlands (I've been to a few Pajero Owners Club meets in that region) and I don't know one West Midlands club member who is aggressive. For that, most are family men and women - just ordinarly folk - and don't fit into the (IME) usual stereotypes for 4x4 drivers. AFAICT, these stereotypes are fallacies that have risen from the anti-4x4 propaganda that Red Ken, Archbigot Berry, et al. have spread with the intention of spreading social hatred.

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Will

Fair point, but I did say right at the outset, "in my experience".

Again, 4x4 drivers that I have experienced created this opinion for me - I didn't just wake up one day and think "Ooh, I'll form this opinion"...


You're right, I shouldn't have implied that ALL 4x4 drivers are berks. It's just all the one's that I have experienced.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Strangely, nobody's disputing that the event took place. However, while you were concentrating on bad 4x4 driving, did you miss (or quickly forget) the hundreds of other 4x4 drivers who were driving courteously? Did you miss the 4x4 driver who gave you a quick flick of the left indicator and pulled left to let you pass? Did you miss the 4x4 driver who saw your approach and opened a space so that you'd have somewhere to go? Did you miss the prat in the non-4x4 tailgating, or overtaking a stopped bus with insufficient clearance for safety? If you did miss (or quickly forget) them, how would you know?

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Will

No, just the ones you've remembered

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Will

and experienced...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Blimey Will, where do you live/drive???

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

What I am saying is that there is an infinitessimally high probability that your experiences do not actually present you with a complete picture of the truth, and you will fill the blanks with your own prejudices or simply draw conclusions unaware of other circumstances that are more likely the cause of what you perceive to be the truth.

For example, how many 4x4 owners have you walked past in the street and been blissfully unaware of the fact that they are 4x4 owners at all. If one of them was exceptionally polite to you this would never register on your perceived experience of 4x4 owners as you don't make the connection.

Not your fault - just pointing out that there's a big wide world out there outwith the scope of your current experience. It is when you choose to close your mind to that possibility that you devalue yourself and your interpretation of your experience.

/me stands up and prepares to take abuse.

Sometimes I think I'd like to ban the purchase of 4x4s and similar large vehicles by people who don't need them. I accept that this is unfair, impossible to implement/police and extremely unlikely to happen. I also accept that some people have a real need or use for a 4x4 and would not want to include these in my hypothetical ban.

The reason isn't environmental or even driver related. Its simply that 4x4s block my vision more than 'normal' cars, and I hate not being able to see well ahead (so I have back off to see around them, which can often lead to another vehicle pulling into the too small space between me and the 4x4). Yes, I know that vans and trucks, etc. normally block vision even more, but trucks and so on have to be big and blocky to transport stuff around the country, they have a useful purpose. If you will excuse the horrible generalisation, the only purpose for the true inner city Chelsea tractors is to make the driver feel big/important/safe whilst they drive little Johnny to school.

I'll reiterate, this is just one of my whimsical wishes and not something I expect to happen.


If you assume that people in general don't notice good driving, perhaps the very size of 4x4s in combination with some piece of bad driving makes them more noticable than, for example, a mini perform the same maneuver? This could lead to the perception of the stereotypical 4x4 driver being aggressive.

As is being discussed in another thread, one tends to have an expectation of other drivers' abilities, based on what they're driving.

Call it empiricism/prejudice whatever, but it's very difficult not to do so.

I'm afraid to say that when I see a 4x4, I expect a rather lower skill/courtesy level than with the average driver. Whether this is mistaken or not, something (or more likely many things) must have put that preconception in there in the first place.

As I said elsewhere, I'm currently developing a similar thing with new Minis; no single incident has put this in my mind, it's just gradually snowballing.

In fairness I drive two white vans and an archetypal boy-racer, so people probably have a whole bag of preconceptions about how I'm going to drive. Not fair, but that's life. If you don't like the way people prejudge you based on your choice of car, all you can do is prove them wrong.

I must admit, people seem very surprised when I show them any level of courtesy when I'm in a white van

The only reason I don't like big off road cars on the road, is they are so bloody big. They can at times be difficult to see around.

I will not use the term 4X4 because there are many 4X4s which are normal sized cars.

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

We see what we expect to see. Our prejudices help us forget what don't want to see and amplify what we do want to see. Ergo, someone who has already concluded that 4x4 drivers are aggressive will actively look for that aggression while suppressing recognition of non-agressive acts. So, those incidents you remember experiencing are probably a very small part of your total experiences.

For example, when you last drove eastbound from the M5 on the M42, what was the make, model, and colour of the vehicle in front of you as you passed junction 2? Although you most certainly experienced that event, I suspect your recall won't be in sufficient clarity to be "evidence" of anything. In the same way, it's doubtful that you could recall or would recognise safe and courteous, but unremarkable driving for more than a very short time after the event. Thus, you would have forgotten the hundreds or even thousands of times you ecountered safe and courteous 4x4 driving yet retained the few incidents of aggression (possibly reinforced by cursing something about 4x4 tossers under your breath). Although safe and courteous 4x4 drivers might outnumber aggressive 4x4 drivers by hundreds (or even thousands) to one you remeber only the aggressive ones.

Because you haven't stereotyped non-4x4 drivers in the same way, you just deal with aggression from non-4x4 drivers and discard the memories almost as quickly as you discard memories of courteously driven 4x4s.

We see what we expect to see. There's no way we can take in every little detail of what's around us, so we take shortcuts that can lead to errors of perception (e.g. optical illusions). The reason why most people think they see, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" the first time they see that is because that's what they expect to see. It's the same with any preconceptions.


I live in Cornwall and have lived in Hampshire and both sides of the Scottish Lowlands. I have clients in the West Midlands and London, and recently had clients in Liverpool and Manchester. I've also driven a fair bit in South Wales. So, I've driven in the same areas as yourself plus a few more and my perception is very different to yours.

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Will

If you don't like to use the term "4x4" then why use the term "off road"? If you are opposed to vehicles around which you find difficulty seeing, I presume you're opposed to lorries, vans, and buses. I also assume you are opposed to the people carriers that are as tall as (or taller than) "big off road cars", and which greatly outnumber off roaders. So, if you are genuinely against tall cars, why are you taking a pop at off roaders but not the more numerous MPVs?

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Will