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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 23:14 
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[quote="civil engineer"]There's definately a role for them but it needs to alter.

Give them all Transit crew cab Flatbeds, filled with plenty of cones, signs etc. They should carry basic fire fighting equipment and booms, granules etc for mopping up oil, chemical spills.

quote]

COSTS TOO MUCH -CE-open up the relient factory again - give them all ROBINS - get plenty of cones, a fire extinguisger or two and a radio ( to call for help) in one of them. A bonus - robins can do more than 50 , but will they be brave enough to do it ?? :lol: (secondary bonus =50+mpg)(and robins don't rust)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 14:55 
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Sorry,

I didn't realise I'd asked a question.

Maybe i shall start...

ISU's fab, great idea.....so why not put the 'officers' in more practical vehicles and have them operating as mini ISU's?

Cheaper per unit and more effective than the current solution.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 21:31 
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I was driving down the m42 today in lane 3 at 70ish, passing a van in lane 2 travelling at about 65, which in turn was passing a LGV in lane 1. The road ahead was clear for some distance. I had seen a HATO 4x4 moving slowly on the hard shoulder with no lights flashing. As I drew level with the van, the HATO vehicle swerved across into lane 3, narrowly missing tha van, and potentially collecting me had i been going a little faster. He then weaves across all three lanes and eventually puts on his do not pass sign. The m42 is a busy road, and it must be difficult to start a roling road block, but this was downright dangerous. I don't know how the police would do ths, but I'm sure it would be done in a professional and safe manner.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 22:42 
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I wasn't aware that they had the authority to establish a rolling road block.

What happens legally if you decide not to play?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 20:13 
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patdavies wrote:
I wasn't aware that they had the authority to establish a rolling road block.

What happens legally if you decide not to play?


This bit cover the rolling road block --"Officers have powers under the Traffic Management Act 2004 to stop and direct traffic or temporarily close roads."

The other bit -"The Highways Agency Traffic Officers are not able to fine you, but it is an offence not to comply with their directions. The police still enforce the law."

Possibly like giving a scam van the two digit salute ??


Mind you - the HATO's regularly cause rolling road blocks - look at the chaos behind them by numptys afraid to pass in normal circumstances :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 16:58 
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handy wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
handy wrote:
Lum wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
- Is their training and experience really good enough to deliver safe behaviour in motorway situations? Personally I don't think it is.


Given the number of times I've seen their range rovers parked on the hard shoulder with the front end pointing towards to motorway and the wheels turned to the right, I would be inclined to agree...


Christ! What a shambles! If they are doing that en mass, then someone has told them to.

This is a case of a little knowledge being dangerous...


I've emailed Highays Agency and asked that they comment on this and suggested that SOP's be changed. I thought this would be more use that talking to the press, somehow. Any response I get, I'll ask if I can post it here.


I saw one of these today, and sent a message to the HA expressing my concern. Within 15 minutes, I had the following reply:

Quote:
Thank you for your comments regarding the procedures of our HATO patrols in relation to their fending position on the hardshoulder.
When we started developing the Traffic Officer service, we looked across at Police practice. We have working with us a number of ex-Police Officers and some serving Police Officers to advise us and to make best use of Police operational practice and guidance. On fending, it soon became clear that there was no consistency between Police forces. Some forces fend in, others fend off and some park in-line (parallel). The current version of the Police Motorway Manual advises that 'vehicles may be parked in-line or in echelon/fend off position. If fend off is used, the Police vehicle must be parked at a minimum angle of 30 degrees to obtain maximum effect from the retroreflective markings.'


Because of this lack of consistency, we commissioned some research work from the Transport Research Laboratory. As a national organisation, we wanted to provide consistent advice to our Traffic Officers. This work looked at impacts by 1.5t and 7.5t errant vehicles at speeds up to 70mph with 25% nearside overlap, 25% offside overlap and full overlap impact with the Traffic Officer vehicle. A number of other factors were considered such as angle of impact, fending position of the TO vehicle and alignment of front wheels.


The conclusion of that work was that there was no single recommended parking orientation that would apply in all situations. Fend off was better in terms of visibility of the vehicle by other drivers whereas fend in was better in terms of post impact vehicle dynamics. We adopted fend off to maximise the conspicuity of the vehicle to other road users and, therefore, try to prevent an impact from occurring in the first place. The angle suggested is 10 degrees which has little impact on the visibility of the lights but exposes the battenburg livery to motorists' view. It was recommended that the handbrake be engaged with the front wheels steered straight although these measures would have little effect with the wheels already locked by the vehicle being in park and in four wheel drive mode. It was recognised that orientation of the TO vehicle was insignificant in an impact by a 30t errant vehicle.

I hope this helps answer your enquiry.


Dunno about you, but that's good enough for me... :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 23:05 
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This poses a question - if you need first aid from some one in the HA - could they distinguish between the various body parts --

the joint in the arm half way between shoulder and wrist
the large muscle we all sit on


One i think is known as the elbow - i know the diference - DO THEY ??


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:46 
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handy wrote:

I've seen these guys quite a lot over the last 12 months or so, and to honest they hadn't really made much of an impression on me - they weren't in my way, didn't really affect me, I wasn't bothered about them.



i suggest you spend a bit more time observing them.

1 they travel at 50 forcing trucks into L2 which is normally full of numpties who slow down thinking it is a cop car.
2 i have heard on several occasions that they stand on the white line which is not clever with trucks passing at 56 in L1
3 what are they there for other than visibility? they never seem to do anything other than put a few cones out and stand around like lost sheep
4 how many times have you seen a police car behind a stricken motorist doing the same thing but better with the added bonus that they can complete tasks that the HA pillocks are not entitled to do?

my view: they are a waste of money, bring back the traffic police!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 17:47 
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Quote:
SCANNY

my view: they are a waste of money, bring back the traffic police!


What bothers me is that having created the empire - -in towns it's the PVCSO ,then "Safety Warden" then Litter Lout preventer ( or whatever their called) , topped by the PC - who seem to be visable by their absence.
On the roads its the HATO, with "HA Incident units ( typo =nits , perhaps thats more accurate ) with trafpol being less and less visible.

Lets add up what this lot are costing us ( and rumours are that HA are overspent).

Wouldn't the money be better spent on providing one Police Constable ,who can doo all these jobs, rather than three to pass the buck upstairs.

At the end of the day , its looking like a sketch from Dad's Army --the one where a German plane is shot down and take the church congregation hostage - "This could be tricky - Better call in *****"


:roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 19:50 
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I am new to this forum and have been reading the variation of comments regarding HATO's with some interest. Everyone appears to have an opinion on what their perception of the HATO's actuall role is, but few have taken the time to ask the HA (Huntsman's query about fend off comes to mind) in order to establish fact.

Should we not be asking how they can assist the diminishing roads policing officrs rather than being critical about a service who are there to help the motoring public, mostly I might add, in their "time of need"?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:20 
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I can see how a support service would be useful in assisting police at accidents etc. These staff should be under the direction of police officers at the scene and not able to patrol on their own without supervision. They would get called out as required.

They should NOT have vehicle livery which mimics the police. This was deliberately done for two spurious reasons:

- to fool the public into thinking that road policing is at a higher level than it actually is.
- to fool motorists that the vehicle they see in the distance is the police and to slow down unnecessarily "just to be sure" (speed kills theory)

They should NOT have any powers other than those delegated to them by the police when assisting them under supervision.

This would fulfil all the claimed benefits of the HATOs without the pseudo-police issues.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 19:04 
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I agree with your point that the idea behind the introduction of HATO should not have been to "hide" the demise of the police, however, I have no problem with their presence acting as a deterrent to slow motorists down. They should not be speeding anyway! Its only being proactive in preventing speeding rather than catching offenders. Isnt that was the police advocate nowdays - prevention?

I do believe that the whole concept and way of working has been agreed with ACPO, therefore in essence, they do work under the direction of the police, albiet a devolved and pre-agreed direction.

It seems everyone complains about the livery on the vehicles, but VOSA has the same and no-one complains about them. Ultimately HATO's work under DofT, therefore should be entitle to best utilise equipment which has been tried and tested before, to keep them safe and visible?

Has anybody ever asked the question directly to a HATO Officer, if they think they are wannabe police or how do they define themselves?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 22:13 
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I'm a serving Hato.

I'm not a 'wannabe' cop. If I wanted to be a policeman, I would have joined the police. That goes for most of my colleagues.

There seems to be a lot of anti Hato comment from people who don't understand what the role of the Traffic Officer service is.

As far as I am concerned we are on the side of the motorist, there to help when things go wrong. We are not there to report motoring offences and have no legal powers to do so. Like any other citizen, we can report dangerous events to the police, but this is very rare.

We clear debris, assist at breakdowns, help clear up after RTC's, and generally try to keep the motorways (and motorists) safe. We attend up to 2000 incidents a day across the motorway network. The vast majority of drivers are glad to have the help and reassurance of someone who is used to the motorway environment, can give advice, and monitor their safety and well being. For many people, the hard shoulder is a hostile environment and even a breakdown can be a traumatic experience

We do not put debris in the carriageway, or crash vehicles or make people break down, but we seem to get the blame when we turn up to clear the situation.

Our vehicles are all 4x4. Most police vehicles are saloons or estates. Our vehicles are yellow and black and usually have 'Traffic Officer' in big letters on the front and back. They are distinctive, but that high visibility is for safety reasons.

The TO service is relatively new and is developing, and like any organisation or group of people, some people do the job better than others.

Give us a chance, one day we may be able to help you or your loved ones. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 22:21 
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Welcome Pinto! :welcome:

I don't think anyone has a problem with HATOs per se, but with the dwindling (dwindled) numbers of traffic police, they seem to be offered up as some sort of replacement, which of course they can never be.

HATOs perform the more routine tasks that traffic officers once would have, and so the question must be posed as to whether they would actually be required, were traffic officer numbers to be restored. At the moment it seems like all the enforcement is being left to the cameras, and HATOs are filling-in for the 'lubrication' that real police once provided the motorway system.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 16:25 
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RobinXe wrote:
Welcome Pinto! :welcome:

I don't think anyone has a problem with HATOs per se, but with the dwindling (dwindled) numbers of traffic police, they seem to be offered up as some sort of replacement, which of course they can never be.

HATOs perform the more routine tasks that traffic officers once would have, and so the question must be posed as to whether they would actually be required, were traffic officer numbers to be restored. At the moment it seems like all the enforcement is being left to the cameras, and HATOs are filling-in for the 'lubrication' that real police once provided the motorway system.


I agree with you to a certain extent, but picking up debris, attending to broken down motorists etc was never a police function. It was something they did because no-one else was available to do it. You don't need months of training, 2 years probation and an understanding of 1001 different points of law to do it.

Listened to police officers talking on the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 today. One of their main complaints was that they are spread too thinly.
If we take some of the minor tasks from them, that will help free up their resources for other (more important?) duties.

It is important to understand that Traffic Officers were brought in as a result of studies into congestion. The Highways Agency owns the motorways and some trunk roads, and is targeted by the government to reduce congestion. Our main aim is to minimise congestion and delays by dealing swiftly with incidents and keeping traffic moving as best we can.

Possibly, the reduction of policing on the motorways led to a lack of manpower to deal with some of the incidents we now attend and I agree that some police resources will be diverted if they have Traffic Officers to deal with certain types of incidents.


Last edited by Pinto on Wed Dec 12, 2007 16:34, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 16:29 
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Agreed, if both are affordable. Unfortunately police resources are being diverted away from roads policing, in favour of automated enforcement, at the same time.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 16:43 
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RobinXe wrote:
Agreed, if both are affordable. Unfortunately police resources are being diverted away from roads policing, in favour of automated enforcement, at the same time.


Agree with you on this too, but the resources are being diverted into other policing priorities, and the Government have made automated enforcement an attractive proposition for police authorities and 'Safety Partnerships'.

Traffic Officer funding comes from the Department of Transport, along with the road building and improvements.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 16:48 
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Pinto wrote:
along with the road building and improvements.


:rotfl:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 16:51 
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Pinto wrote:
Our vehicles are all 4x4. Most police vehicles are saloons or estates. Our vehicles are yellow and black and usually have 'Traffic Officer' in big letters on the front and back. They are distinctive, but that high visibility is for safety reasons.

Welcome. Don't be put off posting again.

I still can't see why any vehicle livery (HATO, VOSA) should mimic the police when viewed from a distance. I don't think your vehicles are distinctive at all and that is why the complaints are made.

Could you clear up one point for me. Do HATOs patrol the motorways (you know, drive along at 50mph in the inside lane :) ) or do you work from a parked-up base and get called in as required.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 17:10 
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Hi Pinto and welcome... :-)

Speaking for myself I have no problems with you guys at all and I'm certain, having on occasions seen you in action "scraping up the bits", that you do a great job.

My only beef is, like others, with the livery of your vehicles and the fact that in general you seem to stooge along at about 50 - casting doubt and terror into all the ruddy numpties who can't tell the difference between a vehicle that's black-and-yellow and one that's blue-and-yellow; and who's spelling ability is so compromised that they assume that "T.R.A.F.F.I.C. O.F.F.I.C.E.R." spells "POLICE" and thus panic brake for fear of committing some heinous crime!

Other than that, keep up the good work. :-)

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