Safe Speed Forums

Can you imagine any parent saying to their children "The roads are perfectly safe dears, now run outside and play"?
You obviously don't think the roads are safe enough, or you wouldn't be campaigning so hard to make them safer.

First things first. Speed limits are definitely a good thing. They serve a useful purpose, but they are only a weak proxy for the desired behaviour.

Modern policy based on "speed kills" has had a number of effects:

- All too often we (national we) we promote 'slower is safer' in a random way, damaging the vital link between speed and hazards

- We have expended far too many resources at every level getting a strong focus on the proxy and forgetting all about the desired behaviour.

- As a result of this driver skills are on average deteriorating.

- It's like we're all watching the referee rather than the ball

- As a result we're losing ground fast. The once reliable fall in road risk values has flatlined. If it hadn't flatlined we'd be over 1,200 lives per year better off than we are.

- And we shouldn't be surprised because in truth road safety is a complex matter of human behaviour centred around skills, attitudes and responsibilities.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

There are all sorts of dangers that children need to be protected from. When we were cavemen it was probably bears, cliffs and rivers. Now it's kettles, bleach and traffic.



More than anything else I'm campaigning to stop the government making the roads more dangerous.

Before policy went wrong I was proud of the country - I sat back and watched excellent progress as we extended our would lead.

For me it's mostly about 'how it's changing', rather than 'the level it is at'. That's logical because the only route to safer roads is through incremental improvement. Presently the increments are in the wrong direction - it's getting worse out there.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The accident figures for bicycles/motor vehicles are skewed in many ways. For instance, motor vehicles have motorways which only they can use. These have virtually every hazard removed from them and accidents are very rare indeed, and there are no pedestrian fatalities at all because it is illegal to walk on a motorway. Motorists clock up millions of miles on these safe roads.
Cyclists have "cycle tracks" built for them which are so poorly designed as to be criminal. Every cycle track is used by pedestrians as well and the accident rate on them is 12 times higher than on the real roads. The highway code actually recommends that cyclists use these "facilities".

If speed limits were introduced in the 30's, at what point did it all start to go wrong and how did that cause thousands of extra deaths?

You're wrong. Unfortunately, legality or otherwise notwithstanding, there are pedestrian fatalities on motorways... IIRC, of the number of fatalities used to "justify" the use of cameras on the M6 through Cumbria, over half of them were "drunk pedestrians".

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

it's not the limits that are the problem as such, it's the mindless automated enforcement of them to the exclusion of all else.

I'm quite sure you know that that ugly outpouring is a travesty of the truth.

- I've yet to hear anyone offer any plausible explanation as to why this massive effort I'm making is worth doing except to save lives. There's no money in it. I certainly don't crave attention (I don't even like it, actually).

- Yes - I have found fatal flaws in government road safety policy. And I am proud to have done so.

- Safe Speed is not even remotely libertarian. We'd crack down hard on sources of danger on our roads.

I don't know what's happened to you Russell. You're spitting bile, when a few days ago you posted on C+ that you agreed with the fundamentals of the Safe Speed case.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

You've, intentially or otherwise, got hold of totally the wrong end of the stick... It's not speed limits that are the problem, it's the concentration on their automated enforcement, to the virtual exclusion of all other methods of road safety, that's the problem!

That's why drink/drive deaths are up, along with no reduction in many other causes. Cameras don't catch drunks, stolen cars, unlicensed drivers, etc... Policemen do!

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

"Traffic calming" is the theory that deliberately introducing hazards causes drivers to slow down and therefore makes the roads safer. What are your veiws on this?
(Mine are that its complete bollocks.)

There are millions more people and millions more cars, the roads could be getting safer and more people dying.

Regardless, the overall figures, accounting for exposure revealing the risk per unit ‘mode of transport’, are proof of the pudding!


Hey, let’s do something about it. If this genuinely is the case then perhaps can take this up as another method to increase overall road safety.

What’s the cost of a length of decent cycle track against a speed camera?

My ideal: more cameras and more policemen.

The number of cars is irrelevant. IIRC, there has been an 8% increase of the total distance travelled on roads (all modes) in the last 5 years; the increase is less than 1% from last year!

It started to go wrong in about 1991. The trend failure is visible from 1994 when new policies started to affect the roads.

Here's one example:



The extra deaths are due to declining driver quality. TRL published as much last year, although I'd been highlighting the fact for some years before. Declining driver quality is due to 'bad policy'.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

However, government doesn't seem to see it that way... Cameras are so effective that traffic policemen are no longer needed. (Irony BTW!)

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

It's probably another useless artefact of the same mindset that gave us speed cameras. I haven't studied traffic calming in great detail. However, I expect it's 'complete bollocks' too.



Yes they could. That's why my work in the area is based on 'risk values' not absolute numbers. The basic unit of road risk is 'deaths per billion vehicle km'

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

What makes you think cameras are helping? (serious question)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Even the best cycle track would be effectively a shared use footpath, you can't keep pedestrians off them.
Cycle tracks create conflict points between cyclists and motorists at junctions and there is no way round this. Cyclists should use the road and feel safe there.

Agree completely. There are few that I would use. There are many NSL roads around the NW where theres ample room to remove the grassy kerb and install a cycle path.

Unfortunately, cyclists don't contribute £50bn or so per year to the treasury as a result of their cycling. But thats another argument.

I agree. There's no reason that adult cyclists shouldn't use the roads. I'm a bit more worried about the under 12s. What about them?

And btw, Dondare, congratulations for keeping up with the onslaught. It's great to discuss different views in a civilised atmosphere.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety