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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 15:37 
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Safe Speed issued the following to press at: 14:32 this afternoon:

Quote:
PR451: Mobile phone driving

news: for immediate release

As the government 'ups the stakes' in mobile phone driving, Safe Speed
questions the wisdom of the plans.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "We need road safety policy based on facts. Our
new national system of road crash contributory factors says that mobile phone
driving isn't a large factor in injury crashes."

"Once again a Department for Transport road safety policy will take resources
away from real sources of danger on our roads. I don't believe that they have
the first clue about what they are doing. The new law will criminalise tens of
thousands, but it won't save a single life."

<ends>

Notes for editors
=================

Recently written royalty free mobile phone driving article:

Mobile Phone Driving - myth and reality

By Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign.

With a new law launching shortly drivers will be told, once again, that driving
while using a hand held mobile phone is dangerous, but, by implication, driving
using a hands free phone is acceptable.

>From 27th February the offence of using a hand-held mobile phone while driving
will carry a £60 fine and three penalty points. The idea that it is dangerous
to use a hand held mobile while driving is passing from legislation into our
safety culture. But is it true, are we really working with the right
information, and most importantly will it save lives?

We have all seen drivers on the phone dithering and wavering around the roads.
It's obvious that mobile phone driving is dangerous so we must do what we can
to stamp it out. Or perhaps it's not quite so clear. I'm sick and tired of
seeing road safety reduced to sound bite backed with fixed penalties and
automated processing. What do we REALLY know about mobile phone driving?

There are lots of scientific papers about using mobile phones and driving. And
they virtually all find the same thing: Using a mobile phone can be extremely
distracting to drivers. But they find equal distraction from hand held and from
hands-free equipment. According to the science the problems experienced by
drivers have nothing to do with holding the phone and everything to do with the
mental effects of the conversation.

There are some very important questions that the science has yet to answer:

- Can we learn to drive safely while using a mobile phone? (Either hand held or
hands free.)
- Could we improve safety more by advising drivers of 'coping strategies'
rather than imposing bans?
- How does a mobile phone conversation differ from a conversation with
passengers?
- Are all drivers equally affected by mobile phone driving? Or are some drivers
at especially high risk?

And there's something surprising in our national figures for road crash
contributory factors. We've grown used to the 'accepted wisdom' that using a
mobile phone while driving is dangerous, but 'driver using mobile phone' was
only recorded in 13 fatal crashes (0.5%) and 306 injury crashes (0.2%) in 2005
[1]. Astonishingly these rates of crash involvement are actually less than the
prevalence of mobile phone driving in the traffic. According to a survey
published by TRL [2], around 2.5% of car drivers and 3.5% of other drivers were
on the phone at sample sites (also in 2005).

This raises the possibility that mobile phone driving is not as dangerous as we
think. If it was dangerous then we would expect mobile phone driving to be
over-represented in the crash statistics, when in fact it is significantly
under-represented. The authorities cannot argue that it is difficult to
determine mobile phone use after a crash because in fatal crash investigations
the Police routinely examine mobile phone records. So although this argument
might apply to lower severity crashes, it cannot be applied to fatal crashes.

So there is a pretty substantial clash between what the science warns us to
expect and the real world results. This is a strong clear warning that the
science isn't yet telling us the whole picture. That's reasonable because
science is a long slow process and mobile phones have not been with us for very
long. What's not so reasonable is that we're throwing legislation around when
we don't really fully understand what's going on.

Two effects of the updated legislation are pretty certain. One is that we'll
penalise a great many drivers, some of whom will lose their licences and their
jobs. The second is that we will use valuable road safety resources chasing a
problem that the crash statistics cannot confirm. Both effects are tragic
because they will mean more damaged lives for an immeasurably small benefit.
I'm most worried about the 'opportunity cost' of road safety resources diverted
from much greater crash causes.

There is no doubt that people sometimes use mobile phones dangerously while
driving. But we have long had suitable laws to allow prosecution in such cases.
Any dangerous use of a mobile phone would be 'driving without due care and
attention' or even 'dangerous driving'.

So… Myth or reality?

- Mobile phone drivers are as dangerous as drink drivers? Myth. The crash
statistics suggest that drunks are involved in 20 times more fatal crashes
while, crucially, drunks are less prevalent in the traffic than mobile phone
drivers.
- Hands free mobile phones aren't potentially dangerous? Myth. The science is
clear as crystal. Holding the phone isn't the problem - something about phone
conversations is the problem.
- Mobile phones are a big modern killer on our roads? Myth. They are a small
modern killer.
- Using any sort of mobile phone while driving is potentially dangerous?
Reality. The science tells us that mobile phone driving can badly affect hazard
perception.

All things considered, I'm pretty sure that 'upgrading' the mobile phone
driving laws will make road safety worse rather than better because we're
moving life saving resources away from known real crash causes towards mainly
theoretical crash causes. One thing is certain. When a Police officer is
processing your mobile phone ticket, he's not arresting a drunk driver.

<ends>

[1] DfT Contributory factors report:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/172974/173025/189 ... ualfigures

[2] TRL report LF2100 http://217.118.128.203/store/downloadreport.asp?id=5485


This is because the penalty rises to £60 and 3 points at midnight tonight.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:00 
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Can anyone clearly define ‘mobile phone driving’?

What if you have no hands free kit, get a phone call and you responsibly pull in and park so you can safely take the call: must the engine be off?
Are there any other legal subtleties we should be aware of?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:09 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
The new law will criminalise tens of
thousands, but it won't save a single life."

I'll think of you the next time some fool tries to run me down because they're too busy on the phone.

When this was last discussed nobody was able (or willing) to provide figures on how many non-fatal accidents were caused by phone users. Now while you might think a bit of broken plastic doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things, getting bounced off my bike and losing a few days work because there are already too many idiots not paying attention does matter to me.
The last thing you should be doing is encouraging even more distraction behind the wheel - and that's precisely what you've done here.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:30 
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Safespeed wrote:
We've grown used to the 'accepted wisdom' that using a
mobile phone while driving is dangerous, but 'driver using mobile phone' was
only recorded in 13 fatal crashes (0.5%) and 306 injury crashes (0.2%) in 2005


I wonder how many more times it actually happened but the culprit was able to secrete the evidence resulting in another causation factor being cited.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:34 
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I know this has been discussed at length and is the subject of much disagreement but ...

We say that one of the many reasons to remove cameras is the momentary lapse of concentration on the road caused by unecessarily looking at the speedomenter. We don't really have any "proof" that this increases the collision risk but it seems plausible.

On the other hand we now seem to be saying that something which plausibly does distract concentration from driving is acceptable.

Whether or not there is evidence, this seems a contradictory position.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:34 
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Rigpig wrote:
Safespeed wrote:
We've grown used to the 'accepted wisdom' that using a
mobile phone while driving is dangerous, but 'driver using mobile phone' was
only recorded in 13 fatal crashes (0.5%) and 306 injury crashes (0.2%) in 2005


I wonder how many more times it actually happened but the culprit was able to secrete the evidence resulting in another causation factor being cited.


Hardly ever in fatals.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:38 
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malcolmw wrote:
I know this has been discussed at length and is the subject of much disagreement but ...

We say that one of the many reasons to remove cameras is the momentary lapse of concentration on the road caused by unecessarily looking at the speedomenter. We don't really have any "proof" that this increases the collision risk but it seems plausible.

On the other hand we now seem to be saying that something which plausibly does distract concentration from driving is acceptable.

Whether or not there is evidence, this seems a contradictory position.


I think it's right and proper to demand evidence based policies.

I'm aware of the apparent contradiction, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to kick at the DfT using their own data.

I'm in favour of DWDC&A prosecutions for careless mobile phone driving.

I'm in favour of a strong recommendation to drivers to NOT use the mobile while driving.

But I'm seriously concerned about the opportunity costs of mobile phone enforcement.

Edited to add: And I'm also seriously concerned about the implied legal approval for hands-free mobile phone driving.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 17:20 
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What worries me is that the offence also applies to cars STATIONARY in public places such as pub car parks and supermarket car parks if the engine is running.

How long before the first convictions of drivers spotted on supermarket or motorway service station CCT cameras.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 17:36 
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I do agree with you paul although I have to admit that you are taking a bold step. But good on you!

Personally I don't know why we have to have a separate mobile phone law any more than we need a 'drinking a can of coke whilst driving law'.

Police on the ground coupled with DWDCA would seem to suffice.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 17:49 
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Whilst I agree that DWDCA plus police actually on the road should suffice - I'm not entirely sure this was a wise move. It could attract unwanted flak and distract people from our main issues.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 17:52 
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prof beard wrote:
Whilst I agree that DWDCA plus police actually on the road should suffice - I'm not entirely sure this was a wise move. It could attract unwanted flak and distract people from our main issues.


I agree that it was 'risky'. But I don't do PC road safety, I do real road safety.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 18:05 
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I think the problem with the mobile phone law is going to be about enforcement. For example, I would say talking on the phone whilst driving on urban dual-carriageways with lots of roundabouts isn't exactly safe - so a £60/3pt fine doesn't seem unreasonable. But then being on the phone whilst creeping along at 5-10mph in a traffic jam on the M25 isn't going to exactly increase the crash risk - so I'd expect a scenario like that to be ignored.

Anyway the point I'm making is, like (or currently not always like) speeding laws, as long as police are fining people who are on the phone when it's not safe, and not fining drivers who aren't causing a danger, then there shouldn't be a problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 18:34 
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The issue as I see it, whether or not talking on a mobile in a particular suspension method is more or less risky than whatever, is that there is no need for a new law (complete with associated fixed penalty option for fast revenue generation) when DWDC&A will suffice, in those circumstances where talking on the phone causes the driver to drive in an unsafe fashion.

This administration seems to have an obsession with creating strict liability offences; tick in the box without any concept of mens rea, no professional discretion required to enforce.

The question you have to ask is: 'Why are they creating a new offence when the existing DWDC&A would cover it?' Do you suppose it might be so that it does not require police to enforce it? If you take away the requirement for a trained officer to be of the opinion that someone was driving unsafely then you can have it policed by any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Who exactly could Tom, Dick or Harry be then? Well, now that popular opinion is turning against automated enforcement of arbitrary speed limits, I know a whole bunch of people with video equipment who are eminently qualified to sit by the side of a road all day in order to police this new offence which the administration have managed to popularly demonise without any real scientific basis.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 18:55 
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Yes Paul you are right the new mobile phone law does come into force at midnight tonight, and yes there will be many a motorist who will be annoyed, upset, call it what you like. The fact is if people who have to use there mobile stick to the legislation available then there is no need for them to worry about it.

If you stop at the side of the road or car park etc with your engine running then I can assure you in Manchester you will not get a ticket, just like if you use your hands free kit, then fine but as soon as you have a phone in your hand to either use it by talking or texting then you will get a ticket, and the motorist have only themselves to blame.

You may be correct when you say that statistics doesnt show KSi being atributed to mobile phone usage, thats because when I attend a collision no matter how serious it may be the driver isnt going to say, sorry, oficer my fault I was on my phone .

Im sure none of you who dont want the legislation will want either you or a member of your family to be one of the first to be involved in a statistic whic involves a KSI mobile phone as far as I am concerned prevention is better than cure as one life lost or maimed is too much.

No, matter how much the motorist bleat on about its not right etc, I wont be convinced I will there tomorrow morning giving tickets for this offence knowing that its for road safety and not filling the pockets of the government .
Stephen


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 19:27 
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RobinXe wrote:
The issue as I see it, whether or not talking on a mobile in a particular suspension method is more or less risky than whatever, is that there is no need for a new law (complete with associated fixed penalty option for fast revenue generation) when DWDC&A will suffice, in those circumstances where talking on the phone causes the driver to drive in an unsafe fashion.

This administration seems to have an obsession with creating strict liability offences; tick in the box without any concept of mens rea, no professional discretion required to enforce.

The question you have to ask is: 'Why are they creating a new offence when the existing DWDC&A would cover it?' Do you suppose it might be so that it does not require police to enforce it? If you take away the requirement for a trained officer to be of the opinion that someone was driving unsafely then you can have it policed by any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Who exactly could Tom, Dick or Harry be then? Well, now that popular opinion is turning against automated enforcement of arbitrary speed limits, I know a whole bunch of people with video equipment who are eminently qualified to sit by the side of a road all day in order to police this new offence which the administration have managed to popularly demonise without any real scientific basis.


Eloquently put...I'm in complete agreement with this and PR451

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 19:31 
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RobinXe wrote:
'Why are they creating a new offence when the existing DWDC&A would cover it?'


Yes it would, but the problem as I see it with DWDC&A is that there are 30 million different interpretations of what 'due care and attention' means. Driving whilst using a handheld creates a specific offence and anyone engaged in that activity can be in no doubt that they are breaking the law. If they are in doubt then the best course of action is to stop at the roadside in a safe and proper place and conduct the conversation there.

Stephen wrote:
You may be correct when you say that statistics doesnt show KSi being atributed to mobile phone usage, thats because when I attend a collision no matter how serious it may be the driver isnt going to say, sorry, oficer my fault I was on my phone .


Ahem, my point exactly.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 20:51 
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There are lots of scientific papers about using mobile phones and driving. And they virtually all find the same thing: Using a mobile phone can be extremely distracting to drivers. But they find equal distraction from hand held and from hands-free equipment. According to the science the problems experienced by drivers have nothing to do with holding the phone and everything to do with the mental effects of the conversation.


There was an item about this on BBC London News tonight, with some research claiming that driving while talking on a hand-held phone worsened your driving by something like 40%, whereas driving while talking on a hands-free kit worsened it by 15%.

I wasn't paying much attention at the time though so I'm not sure what conclusion they reached or what evidence they were siting.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 21:02 
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smeggy wrote:
Can anyone clearly define ‘mobile phone driving’?

It's in The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2003. Snappy title, huh?

This allows for prosecution of anyone who is using a mobile phone safely while driving. If they are causing any danger they are already guilty of an offence. :roll:

It might be easier to prove DWDCA. The mobile phone law (sort of) requires the phone to operate on a listed frequency and to be being used to perform an interactive communication function. How can both of these be proven beyond a reasonable doubt?
Using a phone which doubles as a music player to listen to music doesn't count. Using a tetra handset doesn't count.. Holding your TV remote to your ear doesn't count. :twisted:
Actually there isn't a definition of "hand-held mobile telephone" in there. Hmmm...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 21:09 
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I am not getting into the for and against argument but I can give a little more info about the new law.


The law also covers hand held devices for receiving and sending data - not just phones. So PDA and Blackberry users need to be careful.

There is specific exemption for the use of two way radio. Hand held phones are exempt only to ring either 999 or 112 in response to a GENUINE emergency.


Guidance we have states that vehicle needs to be stationary with engine off.

It is also an offence to not be in proper control of a vehicle when using a hands free phone. It seems that this is intended to cover poor driving which would not merit a DWDC charge.

Apparently this new offence was considered necessary because it would be a deliberate action to use a phone whereas DWDC is more often due to an ommission.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 21:29 
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Rigpig wrote:
Safespeed wrote:
We've grown used to the 'accepted wisdom' that using a
mobile phone while driving is dangerous, but 'driver using mobile phone' was
only recorded in 13 fatal crashes (0.5%) and 306 injury crashes (0.2%) in 2005


I wonder how many more times it actually happened but the culprit was able to secrete the evidence resulting in another causation factor being cited.

Whilst this is clearly possible, it doesn't seem that likely to me. The fact remains that if mobile phone usage were causing serious accidents there would be clear data to demonstrate this, viz:

Police attend fatal accident. As part of the highly detailed forensics that they carry out in such circumstances I feel certain that one of the checks will be "were there any mobile phones in any of the vehicles?", and if so then a quick check with the service provider should ascertain whether it was in use at the time of the crash.

So if mobiles were causing (say) 1% of fatals then it would be known about, and this new legislation would have been announced with a fanfare such as "over 30 people died using mobile phones last year, up from 25 the year before - we need to do something to tackle this problem".

So what do we deduce from the lack of such statements accompanying this new law? Either crash investigators aren't following the very simple steps above, or else mobile 'phones are only responsible for a negligible number of bad crashes. I have to say that the latter seems the most likely, in which case surely we'd be better off putting enforcement efforts into some of the other crash causation factors that cause significant numbers of fatalities rather than something that presumably causes << 1% of fatalities?

Sounds like more misleading road safety disinformation to me. "I'm not speeding and I'm not on my mobile so therefore I'm safe" etc etc...

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