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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 22:29 
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I appreaciate that you see dictionary definition of anticipation in boths cases, but thats not the same as anticipation in thought processes.

Anticipation in reactions is where you are aware of an impending danger and are just waiting to react, in a state of heightened awareness. Basically, in this state, you mind has decided what you will do when you see the cow around the corner (brake/swerve) and so much of the thought process has already been undertaken before the hazard is identified, hence the dramatic reduction in reaction time.

In the debated scenario, Cruise Control was being applied in "safe" circumstances, so the driver is not in a state of heightened awareness. To say he was would be contradictory. Being aware and generally alert is not anticipation by a long way.

Perhaps I can illustrate with a non-driving scenario. When I am clay shooting, because I can anticipate all the processes including the trajectory of the clay target, I can shout pull and wait for the sound of the trap releasing the clay. Then close my barrel, knock the safety catch off, lift the gun, aim and shoot quite easily - because all the reactions are anticipated.

However, If I am walking over a field and quarry "unexpectedly" appears, I struggle to close the barrels etc with any chance of pulling the trigger while it is still in range - let alone hit it, but whilst I am aware and on the look out for quarry, I am not in the heightened state of awareness that I would require for fast reactions.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 23:15 
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Thanks for that. I don't disagree with that but it doesn't actually answer my question. Also:

Lucy W wrote:
In the debated scenario, Cruise Control was being applied in "safe" circumstances, so the driver is not in a state of heightened awareness.

That's true, but is it relevant?
Surely the physical outcome from a spontaneous reaction will still be quicker (certainly no slower anyway) in that circumstance?
All else equal, how can hovering with CC be any worse than keeping the foot on the accelerator when the driver is again 'not in a state of heightened awareness'?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 03:24 
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Lucy Thanks for your detailed reply. Do you have scientific definitions for your phrases?

Cute Joke Steve :)

Steve wrote:
Lucy W wrote:
In the debated scenario, Cruise Control was being applied in "safe" circumstances, so the driver is not in a state of heightened awareness.

That's true, but is it relevant?
Surely the physical outcome from a spontaneous reaction will still be quicker (certainly no slower anyway) in that circumstance?
All else equal, how can hovering with CC be any worse than keeping the foot on the accelerator when the driver is again 'not in a state of heightened awareness'?


I cannot say that I consider anticipation as 'heightened awareness' versus a driver 'paying attention'. There is a possibility of a higher awareness perhaps, but I can easily anticipate, and yet do not think that I am 'that much more aware'. I like to think that I am, as much as possible, thinking and paying attention and anticipating for much of the time that I drive (along with all the rest of the abilities and skills etc).

The (few) cars which I have driven with CC had various ways to 'cancel' the 'request', i.e. tap the brake pedal (gently), touch the throttle, change gear ... now are there any others that I am missing ?

So IF the drivers 'next' car input needs to be any of these actions, then it may only matter if the desired next action, is what is under the right foot. I would ascertain that the 'action' taken is quicker, because the foot is covering that input and has to travel less far BUT I have seen too that a driver 'expectation' is that it will be over the throttle (expected start position!), and so move the foot (instinctively) to the left and then hit the clutch ! There is a command stated to the brain that if 'x' is needed then 'foot' location is 'here' so the next move is 'to here' in anticipation if or when something occurs, a kind of pre-emptive thought in readiness for the next action.

I do agree that when using the CC you generally are in what you perceive to be a 'safe' condition, that is you do not expect the immediate and mid range distances to alter much at all. So does better education and understanding need to be reinforced, to remind drivers that very wet roads with surface water, is not wise to have the CC on? Is this not obvious? Is the use of the CC regularly giving a false confidence ?
Is the driver more or less aware of the road when under CC? I tend to go 'more' because I feel the car is in a semi-auto mode and so feel that I must react sooner than 'normal' to any potential hazard, hence perhaps why I need to ensure greater awareness and control, so would choose to not have it (CC) applied under very wet conditions ...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 20:10 
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Claire: I don’t have definitions but all I can say is that the difference between spontaneous and choice reaction is found within the cognitive process within the nervous system. All I know is which reactions are which and how to apply them appropriately.

I would have sourced them, but I can’t be bothered in the circumstances, just in case they didn’t get posted.

I could also add that if the driver sees the hazard in peripheral vision (or alerted in some other way) and has to turn his eyes to make a hazard recognition he will add a further 0.4 second to his overall prebraking time. But this 0.4 second is not the time it take to turn your eyes! It the effect on the cognitive processes.

I can only emphasise that reaction, braking and stopping is a complicated science and clearly not suitable for a Safe Speed discussion board.

Whilst I will often preach against the “numbing down” of drivers by electronic driver aids, I do make the exception for Cruise Control (CC) for the following reason.

Very often (theoretically always) accidents are caused by a mis-perception of the risk as lower than it is and as we all drive at what we believe to be an acceptable level of risk, when misperceived we drive too fast or too close. This misperception is often caused by drivers over estimation of the abilities of driver aids and their detachment from near misses as such aids, especially ESP, hide them from the driver.

Generally people engage CC in circumstances where they feel it is so safe, it is appropriate. However, if there is any numbing down, it is due to the perception that the road is safe, not that CC is on.

Some people do say “drivers switch CC on and go to sleep” whereas I would say such drivers would equally keep a constant throttle with their foot and go to sleep. It’s not CC’s fault if people are “numbed down”, its human nature based on perception. I have never heard of any manufacturer claiming that the use of CC makes a car safer – probably because they know that it doesn’t and “brake-hovering” makes driving less safe. It’s a little like the brochures never say ABS reduces stopping distances – that’s because it doesn’t always and any such claims would have to be accompanied with clear caveat that ABS may increase stopping distances, and I’m sure we can imagine the confusion that would cause in the showroom.

Personally when I drive on motorways, even though I may have a constant speed, I still make minor throttle adjustment as I pass traffic approach traffic and hence CC would be useless. Of course there is the 3AM Motorway scenario, but personally I won’t be doing 70mph then!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 23:29 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
I cannot say that I consider anticipation as 'heightened awareness' versus a driver 'paying attention'. There is a possibility of a higher awareness perhaps, but I can easily anticipate, and yet do not think that I am 'that much more aware'. I like to think that I am, as much as possible, thinking and paying attention and anticipating for much of the time that I drive (along with all the rest of the abilities and skills etc).

It seems the debate here is whether those who use CC are more aware (however it is defined) than those who don't. Effects of causality aside, it could be argued that those with the foot on the gas could feel more safe because of the subconscious tendency to augment the speed to suit minor changes of traffic proximity - which won't be enough when an event is building up (especially if one is used to relying on greater engine braking when previously travelling at slower speeds [in lower gears]).

I guess what we need to settle this is crash data showing the proportions of those who don't use cc and those who hover with cc. I think we could all agree that using cc and relaxing the foot is the worst option so no there’s need to chase that one. Does this data exist?

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
So IF the drivers 'next' car input needs to be any of these actions, then it may only matter if the desired next action, is what is under the right foot. I would ascertain that the 'action' taken is quicker, because the foot is covering that input and has to travel less far BUT I have seen too that a driver 'expectation' is that it will be over the throttle (expected start position!), and so move the foot (instinctively) to the left and then hit the clutch ! There is a command stated to the brain that if 'x' is needed then 'foot' location is 'here' so the next move is 'to here' in anticipation if or when something occurs, a kind of pre-emptive thought in readiness for the next action.

That is true, but only for those who aren't used to 'hovering'. Those who have amassed their driving experience using the hovering technique (or at least when possible) won't be subject to that conditioned reaction of moving the foot to the left (at least not nearly as much anyway). It's just like using truncated words for texting (or even web acronyms, IANAL, AFAIK, LOL and all that [I read those like normal words]): they are easy to read to those with enough experience, but nigh on impossible for those inexperienced, not without asking other people anyway.

In fact I would go further and say hovering could be better in that respect. My work means I usually have to swap between many makes of company cars. I was once caught unawares whilst driving a Seat Ibiza, I missed the brake pedal (thankfully I had given myself plenty of space to react and re-react). I'm sure the pedals were closer together (edit - I've sometimes revved while braking/clutching, as has another colleague), but once I got used to them I was fine.



Anyway, my original point was in relation to the 'hovering trebles Transfer Time' - I still don't see how it can be (edit) in terms of spontaneous and choice reactions.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 23:39 
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Lucy W wrote:
I would have sourced them, but I can’t be bothered in the circumstances, just in case they didn’t get posted.

Since moderation: in this thread 13/13 accepted, 0 posts pending or rejected.

I will promise you such a post will be approved if you continue with the spirit of your other posts within this thread.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 13:36 
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I took my CC-equipped car out for the first time in a fortnight this morning.

It was only after I had done so that I realised that having applied CC I had subconcsiously moved my foot to the cover-the-brake position.

I know I've been told it's not a natural, spontaneous thing to do, but I did it!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 19:06 
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I dislike CC as think folk do get lulled into a false sense of security. If some switch on the CC to "outsmart the clusters or the SPEC!" :roll: and then hit the brakes. CC swiitched off and they may drift over.

\i know Wildy has complained about "feeling as if in a runaway car" when she's used it.. but then "she likes to feel in control all the time" :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 06:22 
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In Gear wrote:
I dislike CC as think folk do get lulled into a false sense of security. If some switch on the CC to "outsmart the clusters or the SPEC!" :roll: and then hit the brakes. CC swiitched off and they may drift over.

\i know Wildy has complained about "feeling as if in a runaway car" when she's used it.. but then "she likes to feel in control all the time" :popcorn:

You'd hate the CC in my Accord even more then - which has more automation options that you'd have ever dreamed possible 10 years ago!

Keeps its distance ... keeps between the white lines... nudges the steering torque if someone is drifting over toward you, beeping at you as it does so (all the time the driver is in control, these are coerces not overrides).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:20 
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Both me and Wildy think the gadgets are OK - but we have all to be trained to use them properly.

I think folk have misconceptions as to what the in-car toys actually do and how to use them to benefit at times :roll:


However, I did use the CC when travelling down to Cambs for the family "epic" a couple of weeks or so ago - as we wanted to get the "cooing over the twins over at one go. :wink:"

(Background aside..to that trip)
( I took our older brood in the people carrier we use for such "sorties" :lol: Wildy and the baby twins travelled with her parents I need to buy a ruddy bus now! :banghead: as even the people carrier ain't big enough for all of us at once! (We've always used two cars in past with me driving one and Wildy the other - but as you know - she's been "grounded on medical grounds until her doctor passes her fit.. She now thinks he must post to PH as he won't pass her :lol:). Seriously - I think, as a fellow medic, her own medic is right on this one .. but it makes life a lot harder for me without her driving around to do various household chores. ) I am not allowed to treat/prescribe for any member of my family - except in absolute and provable emergency - of course.

We knew there were SPECS along the route - so we used the CC for their duration :roll: .. and I advised my father-in-law to use his in-car toys too. :lol: I don't like the "lost feel of control" over much any more than my wife .. But .. My father-in-law reported that even from his back seat - she complained as she "felt the automation kick into play". He says he's happy enough to use his CC (all singing/dancing one) as he only gets a 3 mph margin in his own country - and has to prove his fitness to drive each time he celebrates the next birthday - thus he cannot afford a mistake. :roll: He told me you have to persevere with it to become "at one with it and use it wisely"


Wise words from a 78 year old?

Driven his Merc (am insured to do so :wink: He took out insurance to cover family members whilst over here as a precaution :bow: The old boy's quite "wild" too :lol:) Tried out his CC for myself. Have to admit the car's overall handling and performance, together with all its on-board toys outperform our Jags :banghead: Still don't like the feel of CC though :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 15:00 
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Roger wrote:
In Gear wrote:
I dislike CC as think folk do get lulled into a false sense of security. If some switch on the CC to "outsmart the clusters or the SPEC!" :roll: and then hit the brakes. CC swiitched off and they may drift over.

\i know Wildy has complained about "feeling as if in a runaway car" when she's used it.. but then "she likes to feel in control all the time" :popcorn:

You'd hate the CC in my Accord even more then - which has more automation options that you'd have ever dreamed possible 10 years ago!

Keeps its distance ... keeps between the white lines... nudges the steering torque if someone is drifting over toward you, beeping at you as it does so (all the time the driver is in control, these are coerces not overrides).



I think such a device would begin to annoy me eventually. :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 15:04 
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I never use the CC on my car, not sure why - I think I have the same "not feeling in control" thing that others have mentioned.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 15:18 
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prof beard wrote:
I never use the CC on my car, not sure why - I think I have the same "not feeling in control" thing that others have mentioned.



I think a significant number probably share this view.

Gadgets are fine - but we still have to know how to use them properly. Sadly, too many don't. :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 20:22 
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I must admit that I have just acquired a sat nav for the first time (it was free with a large screwfix order so cost nowt) but I use it constantly even when pottering around locally. Firstly cos it's got a bluetooth hands free built in and secondly in place of the speedo. It's far more accurate and positioned in corner of windscreen, not to be in a blindspot but just so that I can read the speed without glancing down to dash speedo. (Plus it reminds me of scameras....;-) )

I always said that I didn't really need one because I either knew where I was going or had a good map but for the speedo alone it's worth having, especially as mine over reads as much as 5MPH at some speeds..

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 22:09 
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Gadgets are fine.. but use common sense all the same :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 15:29 
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Yes IG, I agree. I think we all depend too much on gadgets these days.

One of my cars has reversing sensors, headlight reminders when you leave lights on and leave car and other silly little gadgets that have nothing to do with road safety but it's suprising how you take them for granted and forget to check the basics and asume that they are going to work all the time for you. This is why I am loathe to drive cars with ESP, ABS and other "handling safety" gadgets, I feel that if you get too reliant on them that you forget the art of driving skillfully.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 23:02 
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graball wrote:
Yes IG, I agree. I think we all depend too much on gadgets these days.

One of my cars has reversing sensors, headlight reminders when you leave lights on and leave car and other silly little gadgets that have nothing to do with road safety but it's suprising how you take them for granted and forget to check the basics and asume that they are going to work all the time for you. This is why I am loathe to drive cars with ESP, ABS and other "handling safety" gadgets, I feel that if you get too reliant on them that you forget the art of driving skillfully.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 15:34 
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There's a bit of an Echo round here..... :-)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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