Safe Speed Forums

Interested to hear peoples' thoughts on this.

Scenario:

Your job involves driving, and your company gives you a car/car allowance. They say that they need to check your driving licence for duty of care reasons, and ask you to complete a form giving your permission for them to get your licence details directly from the DVLA.

Do you give permission or not?

No. You take the licence to them and let them see it. If its good enough for a HGV drivers' agency then its good enough for any body else.

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

They only need to see your licence, nothing else.

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

A lot of drivers get a spare liscence just before they get banned!
a physical liscence check does not prove that the driver is still valid.

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Why not just sign the form?

Because by doing that you are giving the employer permission to have every single last bit of data that the DVLA might hold on you.

Consider this scenario.....

12 years ago you made a genuine mistake down the pub which put you 1 point over the legal limit for drink driving. Although it is obvious you are not a pisshead, you still got banned for the standard year and had your license endorsed.

12 years down the line that conviction is now considered "spent" in the eyes of the law and does not show on your license. However the record is never wiped on the computer, and your employer can see that you were done for D&D.
Your employer doesn't know the actual circumstances surrounding the incident, but can you honestly say that your employer isn't going to be thinking about that conviction when they decide to give you a company car?

_________________
What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

A system that I have implemented with clients is that they ask for permission to check that a licence is still valid and if it has points on it, that is the only information asked for and provided by the DVLA. No history is asked for or provided.

There was a case of a driver being disqualified for DD and the employer had made no checks, following an accident during company business the court held the employer partially liable due failure in checking that thier drivers held valid licences.

It is a fairly recent case and HGV agencies are starting to take on board the implications of this case, so checks will be starting to creep in.

I'm only in favour of checks to see that a driver has a valid licence to drive and prefer a permit to drive system where there is an assessment of the driver first hand with any additional training being provided where required.

As a thought I would only give permission for the company to check if I had a current valid licence and points.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I asked this question because I run risk management programmes for company car and van fleets - we do a comprehensive risk assessment which includes licence checking as one element. We then look at the full picture (type of car, mileage, age, location, accident history, points, etc) and put drivers forward for training where appropriate.

We check licences with the DVLA for two main reasons:
1. There's no possibility of fraud
2. It's far easier from an admin perspective.

Of these, no. 2 is by far the more pressing reason to use this method - just imagine what it's like trying to view, copy and validate 5,000 individual licences every year!

Very occasionally, I come across a driver who refuses to take part, no matter what assurance I give regarding Data Protection, etc. and have never been given a reasonable explanation for this (or at least one I can understand). I was hoping to get more of an insight here, and a better understanding of how drivers feel about these issues.

Can I ask a question of those of you who would object - is there anything that would reassure you and make you happy to take part?

_________________
Earth rotation is caused by penguins running around the south pole.

When you rent a car you just have to present a current drivers licence. I have a company car. They take a photo copy of it every year...thats all the need to do..

If they gave me a consent form to sign I would refuse. They have not right to access that information.

This smacks of lack of trust in the honesty of their employees. That is control freak stuff. I would be reluctant to work for someone like that.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills

The information provided by the DVLA is no more than can be seen on your licence. I recommend this route to clients because as I said earlier, there will always be a tiny minority who are dishonest and it's by far the easiest way to check that somebody is entitled to drive.

I'm interested that you would refuse if you were asked you to do this. You're absolutely correct that employers don't have the right to access the DVLA info - that's why they ask for your permission. I still don't really understand exactly why you'd refuse

I have some clients who feel that a refusal indicates something to hide Please note that I disagree with this! That's why I'm asking these questions!!

_________________
Earth rotation is caused by penguins running around the south pole.

Refusal equals guilt...intersting. What about privacy. Where do you draw the line?

Like I said its a matter of trust. If you feel the need to check that I am not lying I would not want to work for you in the first place.

If a company has to check on the honesty of its line managers then there is something seriously wrong with the business. Its a sign of very poor quality management.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills

Gizmo,

As I said, the primary reson for adopting this approach is actually ease of administration, rather than actually trying to catch anybody out (although that's what most people fixate on!). According to the HSE, licences have to be checked - there's no getting around that. Would you object on the grounds of convenience/cost/time?

_________________
Earth rotation is caused by penguins running around the south pole.

I have no objection whatsoever in letting someone see my driving licence. But that is it.

What could be easier than taking a photocopy of the licence.

Why should I sacrifice my privacy for the sake of "ease of admin"

Its like making staff clock in and out for "fire safety reasons"...cobblers!

I have found that is you are honnest with your employees they will probably be honest with you. If you don't have that your business is going down the pan.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills

With small companies, I agree, it's easy to check on an individual basis, but what about large organisations? One of my clients employs 2,500 drivers which represents 110 working days every year simply to see all the licences, not including the time taken to chase people up!

Can't disagree with your other statement either. Trust is hugely important, so why wouldn't you trust your employer when they say they need to do these checks?

Not sure about business going down the pan, though - some blue-chip companies operate a "no check, no car" policy. Personally speaking, I'd rather find out the objection and deal with it, rather than adopt a "because I say so" attitude.

_________________
Earth rotation is caused by penguins running around the south pole.

Blue chip today.......chapter 11 tomorrow......

The worst company I have EVER worked for was an American multi-national. The kept an eye on everything you did. I left after a less than a year because the atmosphere was so bad.

Business is about people. The second you loose sight of this you are on the road to insolvency. It may take a long time but it will happen.

If you sacrifice privacy or trust for the sake of “admin” you have lost the plot.

Maybe some blue chips do have this policy, but then again may be there are some extremely talented people who would not work for them because of this. Who is losing out?



I use a photocopier that sends the copy to PDF. It is then e-mailed to "admin" Takes about 30 seconds in all. The reminder is set up as a task on Outlook.

How long does it take to process 2500 applications with the DVLA?

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills

From schemes I've been involved with, given the balls ups that the DVLA have made on a regular basis there is a concern that details may come back incorrect. Likewise to satisfy 'due diligance' as far as the HSE are concerned physically 'seeing' the document is satisfactory.

Most of my employers will not issue a car until they have 'seen' the licence.

DVLA checks are seen as heavy handed and and unnecessary intrusion into privacy, given the concerns about security of data and the increasing number of organisations that are now looking to get DVLA data, some object as a matter of principle - 'If we allow these types of checks to be made, what other checks will also creep in?'.

As someone inH&S I can appreciate your position, but also find it interesting that an employer makes great stock of employers duties but in most cases are quick to ignore thier own.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Offering/Accepting new employment is a two-way business. The employer trusts you to have represented yourself correctly and honestly, including production of copy of University Degree, driving licence, etc, and you trust that the employer can and will pay your wages in full and on time.
If the employer asks to have access to your private information at the DVLA, maybe you should ask for access to the employer's bank account details on-line from his bank for you to ensure that your wages can be paid and that there is no cash-flow problem. Would any employer agree to that? In other words, the employer wants access on-line to personal informationto enable continued proof of your qualifications to do the job, but may not let you have access to confirm his ability to continue to fulfil his part of the contract between you.
If you show your employer both parts of your licence whenever asked, that should be an end to it. He has carried out his 'duty of care' and you have produced the documents required in order to be allowed to drive.

It is the DVLA that I mistrust. This is the organisation that has a history of selling information that drivers provided in confidence to wheel clamping companies and the like. Who knows what they will tell your employer? I have no way of knowing, and no way to object to anything they might say.

Now, I KNOW what it says on my licence, and I know by showing it that the information imparted is limited to what is on it.

Martin

I'm amazed that ANYONE is allowed to photocopy a driving licence !!

the firm i work for does this on a twice yearly basis . OK, i understand why they want to see it, but am baffled as to why they make a photocopy of it.
all these copies are in head office somewhere on bits of paper, anyone who has access to that folder full of license details could pass it on, and mysteriously an innocent license holder could be roped into a court case, after all it reveals your name, address, age, class of license ect ect.
thats not to say everyone working in an office is likely to do this sort of thing, but you only need 1 person to do this at a large company with in excess off 100 drivers.
the data protection act is fine, until some carefree cleric leaves the folder on there desk at going home time , then its an open opportunity for an underpaid cleaner, delivery person , security guard to cash in .

you don't allow anyone to photocopy your passport, or credit card, yet a driving license is just as personal to the holder as these items.
I agree with an employer physically seeing it, but not making copies of any kind . All thats needed is to keep a ledger of whose license has been checked at what point in the year and if the person holds a valid clean license. surely if this is done by a prominent person within the company, thats plenty to prove the company has made every effort to ensure each driver is a qualified driver of that class of vehicle for insurance purposes.

EDIT . i would quite happily sign the ledger to say i had provided it for view, and Mr/Mrs so and so saw it .
as for 110 days to check 2500 licenses,( at 1 minute each = 41 hours) why not get each employee to do it the way i suggested, either when they pick there pay slip up, or hand there expenses form in , wouldnt take 1 minute per person would i ? yet another fortune saved for industry.
if you had concerns for the 110 working days to check the license's, then your company is not run very well if you only have 1 person in charge of a fleet that large

Yes you do. Every time you provide these items asa proof of identity for banks, etc. a copy is taken. There are specific guidleines (and reasons) for copying passports on the UKPA webiste.



Perhaps it would be more understandable if expressed as man/days. If it would take 1 person 110 days, then it would take 10 people 11 days, but this is still 110 man/days that the employer would need to pay for checking licences